We already knew that turn signal DRL's were a bad idea...

There's never been any such a requirement in Canadian headlamp regulations.

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern
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Or a 5702KA, if you don't want to be replacing 3157NAs every month or two. This works if the amber lens is only for colour and doesn't contain any optics.

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Probably because Sylvania don't supply the correct bulb, which is

4114K (much longer life and slightly cooler running than 3157LL).
Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Yeah...I'm not so sure that's really been a problem. A little thought with respect to implementation cuts it significantly, and proper selection of light sources for adequately long life cuts it still further. Other countries (e.g. Australia) have been eyeing the turn signal DRL for use exclusively on motorcycles, to differentiate them from automobiles. If that pans out as a beneficial measure, it'll be a pity we won't be able to adopt it because of the existing installed base of turn signal DRLs on cars and trucks.

But overall, if one cannot have a functionally-dedicated DRL, the turn signal DRL is a great deal less problematic and potentially more beneficial than any headlamp-based implementation.

There are some really nice LED DRLs presently and "coming soon", both at the OE and aftermarket level. And BMW have just begun running extra- bright inner "angel eyes" as effective nonglare DRLs in the daytime and front position "parking" lamps at night - it takes more power than turn signal or LED DRLs, but less power than headlamp DRLs.

And there's still a great deal of debate regarding the efficacy of DRLs as a safety device. The matter is generally being decided in various jurisdiction on political as much as safety grounds.

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Robertson is correct. It's been extremely common in Canada for many years on wood screws, drywall screws, machine screws, and sheetmetal screws. Works better than Philips, much better than slotted, and the colour-coded drivers make tool selection easy on the fly.

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Yup, Robertson it is... for years and years the only place I'd seen it was on a camper shell that my grandfather had bought back in the early

70's for the '73 Chevy pickup that my dad now owns... I think the tool we had was actually an old Phillips screwdriver field-modified on a bench grinder, only time it ever got used was when we mounted the camper shell and had to tighten up the trim (was aluminum over wood frame.) Seen it more and more lately though.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

I coulda swore that there was a FMVSS that required non-replaceable lenses, and I've never seen a glass lens on any US-spec vehicle.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Apparently GM did not either, the 3157LL was in there previously. Unless it'd already been replaced.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Yeah, which comes down to getting people to buy more tools. I think they claim it is more secure because authorized dealers are only supposed to sell to authorized persons and whatnot. Which doesn't mean I can't find them on Amazon.

Reply to
Matthew T. Russotto

No. The requirements for reflector durability and seal integrity are more stringent for headlamps with replaceable lenses, though, and for that reason it is more costly in the North American market to equip a car with replaceable-lens headlamps. Reflector durability and seal integrity are very important to the long-term safety performance of a headlamp; I would like to see the more stringent requirements effected across the board (w/ or w/o replaceable lenses), which might tend to cancel or at least reduce the market disincentive towards replaceable lenses.

You haven't been looking! Off the top of my head, here are some cars with glass-lens replaceable-bulb headlamps in the North American market:

-Volvo 850 and at least the first several years of S/V70

-Saab 900 '86-'98, 9000 '86-'98, 9-3 '99-'02, 9-5 '99-'01

-Chevrolet Cadavalier, '8?-'9?

-Chevrolet Caprice, '87-'90

-Audi 5000, '85+

-Mercedes-Benz, all models '85 until at least 1999, some models thereafter

-BMW, all models '89-91, some models thereafter

There are many others.

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

More stringent than ECE? I have in my posession a factory set of ECE headlamps for a Corrado G60 so they are 17 years old at the newest and they are certainly in MUCH better shape than the US-spec ones removed from the car. They do have replaceable glass lenses, held to the plastic housing by metal clips and what appears to be a silicone rubber seal (although I'm guessing on the seal material.)

No argument here, although I would think that replaceable lenses would still be a bonus in terms of long-term maintainability; if a glass lens becomes overly pitted or a polycarbonate lens becomes hazed, it would be nice to have the option to simply replace the lens without having to purchase either a complete new headlamp assembly from the dealer ($$$$) or a "good used" junkyard unit that may not be significantly better than the one removed. The biggest problem that I see is hazing of the polycarbonate lenses, this seems to be a nearly universal problem with any car more than a few years old. Some worse than others, for sure, but eventually they all seem to haze over.

Of the above, BMW is the only one that I have had any contact with whatsoever, and at least the 3-series of a couple years ago used plastic. Certainly the vast majority of vehicles on the road today have either sealed beams or polycarbonate-lensed aero-style headlights.

nate

Reply to
N8N

Can't argue with that last sentence :)

Personally I don't care that much for DRLs as most implementations seem to range from "outright offensive" (early Saturn) to "merely less than optimal" (turn signal) and there are very few implementations that I really feel good about. I'm curious what your objection is to reduced-power low beam DRLs, as those seem to be pretty inoffensive, is it that they don't provide the same conspicuity benefit as a dedicated DRL with an optimized beam pattern for the application? Granted they do result in reduced headlamp life, but I put over 40K miles on my '02 GTI without having to replace a bulb, likewise with my '05 Impala, both cars spent a lot of time in city traffic so operating hours are probably higher than average for the mileage.

nate

Reply to
N8N

Yes.

Nice anecdote ;-)

Agreed!

Yes...the numbers after the makes in my list above are model years.

Sealed beams are almost absent from the market any more. Most headlamps in North America do these days have polycarbonate lenses...but not because there's any law saying they have to.

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Well, GM have certainly done stupid things before. Let's see if this is one of them. Here are some major (bright) filament life ratings for various S8 wedge-base bulbs physically, electrically, and photometrically compatible with one another:

3157LL (3157K): 2k hr @ 12.8v, 1k hr @ 13.5v, 624 hr @ 14.0v 4157K (4157LL): 4k hr @ 12.8v, 2k hr @ 13.5v, 1.2k hr @ 14.0v 4114K (4114LL): 12.8k hr @ 12.8v, 6.4k hr @ 13.5v, 4k hr @ 14.0v

Which looks like the smart choice for DRL service? Which looks like the dumb choice?

DS

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

That data is not relevant to GM decision makers. How much does each bulb cost from various suppliers and what does the decision maker get from choosing a particular vendor?

If a rep for a Chinese company that can supply 3157LL's for a tenth of a penny less each than any other vendor on any of the bulbs plus throws in some superbowl tickets, that's the "smart" choice given the priorities.

The buyer has to replace the burned out bulbs so it is not something GM has to worry about. (Plus, all the buyers who know better stopped buying GM cars two decades ago)

Reply to
Brent P

Maybe *new* GM cars.

I'd still like to find something similar to my dad's '67 Cutlass. Back in the day, GM knew how to bolt a car together. I still would rather have, say, a '67 Barracuda... but hey, guess what, both Olds and Plymouth are now history... sad.

Does anyone subscribe to Hemming's Muscle Machines? This month's issue featured a '67 Dart GT... I immediately snapped back about 10 years. I was living in Pittsburgh and trying to find various pieces parts to keep my '67 Dart on the road, found a junkyard in McKee's Rocks that still kept all the "old stuff." Got to know the owner, turns out he was a CMU alum, so we'd chat for a bit every time I or one of my friends needed something. Found a '67 Dart GT in the 'yard, identical in every way to the car in this month's HMM except this one was dark metallic green. Gorgeous car, and didn't really show any reason why it should be in the junkyard. Only thing I could see wrong with it was the driver's door had a padlock hasp screwed into it (?!?!?!?!?!) I'd talked to the owner about possibly buying it off him as a resto project, and he tried to talk me out of it, saying that I'd be stuck with a salvage title if I went through with it. Well one day the decision was made for me when someone bought the transmission out of the car, and they removed it by flipping the car on its side with a forklift and torching out the rear mount.

I know that when you run a junkyard, you can't get sentimental about your stock, but a little part of me still is sad about that. I felt like that guy in that TV commercial that's sobbing as he picks up the old Camaro and drops it on the pile...

(yeah, I know I'm getting a little OT here...)

nate

Reply to
N8N

Why did I not ask you about this when I bought the pickup and had to replace a taillight? would have made a wiser purchasing decision :) (yeah, I know, I wasted a whole five bucks at most)

I did not think to look in the owner's manual of the Malibu. I might do that next time I end up in one.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

I get your point, but it does seem like an awful lot of US-spec headlamps fail FAR before the point at which an ECE lamp would. Of course, I don't have a whole lot of data points to draw on, because I've only had two sets of ECE lamps in my posession (the Corrado ones and a set for my old Scirocco) not counting sealed beam replacements and US-spec lights can be viewed simply by walking through any parking lot. Still, if nothing else, if an ECE lamp is showing signs of seal failure, you can just get a new seal, or even gob something up with silicone if you're, um, frugal. If a US-spec lamp shows signs of seal failure, well, there's not a whole lot you can do about it without getting real creative, but the lenses are likely already fogged. Heck, since I had to repair the Corrado's lights (couple of broken adjusters,) I "detailed" them by throwing everything but the reflectors in the dishwasher :) Try that with a US-spec light!

I guess at least one part of my statement was in error then, I must have been misremembering something. Personally I'm not sure why they were

*allowed* in the first place, as UV-protective coatings still seem to be not quite ready for prime time, or at least not utilized in an effective manner.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Last 30 years give or take 5.

That was 40 years ago ;)

Salvage titles can be cleared by going to a state that doesn't keep track of such things. As much as you've moved it would have had a regular title by now ;)

I've seen a fair number of cars in junkyards that really didn't seem like they belonged there.... then watch them get cut up, stripped, and generally abused.

Reply to
Brent P

I meant some of us still buy cars "gently pre-owned." My "new" car turns 20 next year. Should I bake it a cake?

I came by it honestly, it was at least 14 years old or so when it went to the Big Parking Lot in the Sky due to frame rust over the rear axle.

Now you tell me :( Actually I knew that, but it would have been a better long-term investment than the 914 that is still sitting in my parents' barn.

I suppose if I'd held onto it but never registered it that I could probably have gotten a clear title from Broadway by now, not that I would ever suggest that anyone do something slightly dishonest. (for the record, I've used Broadway exactly twice, once for a '62 Stude that was never registered, ever - seriously - and once for my '55, which had been floating around unregistered for a decade or more. So my conscience is clear.)

True, but it's rare that you see something truly collectible in that state. And when you do, it's really, really sad.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

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