What GM's come without spyware?

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I know that the 1999 on Sunfire's and what not have data recorders. But what new GM models are sold without the recorders? The only reason that I ask is that I was reading this (below) on CNN and
thought of "Onstar" I want to replace my 1995 Olds 98 but I'm not sure I want to advertise my life to unknown parties
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/biztech/09/03/blackboxdriving.ap/index.html
Drivers trade privacy for insurance discounts Friday, September 3, 2004 Posted: 9:05 AM EDT (1305 GMT)
(AP) -- For two months, Jacob Sevlie's insurance company tagged along whenever he slid behind the wheel of his Honda Accord.
An electronic monitor the size of a matchbook closely tracked Sevlie's driving time and behavior. If he had a heavy foot or was a sudden braker, the auto data recorder would betray him.
Disconnected from the car and hooked to a PC, the device relayed Sevlie's digital driving diary to his auto insurer, Progressive Corp., with the click of a mouse during a pilot program earlier this year.
Although privacy advocates say the gadget smacks of Big Brother, Sevlie signed up and sent monthly data in hopes of saving money on his insurance bill. In return, he got a $25 stipend and the promise of a 15 percent rate cut when the program launches.
Mayfield Village, Ohio-based Progressive is now promising discounts of up to 25 percent as it expands the so-called TripSense pilot program to 5,000 Minnesota customers. Sevlie, of Bloomington, Minn., is among them.
Progressive says it will use the data only for potential discounts and not to penalize customers whose devices reveal risky driving habits.
The monitoring has the potential to cascade through the insurance industry, said Charles Samuelson, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Minnesota.
"What happens is Progressive does this and gets a little bit of market share growth because they've lowered prices. Then it gets copied by other insurance companies," he said. "Pretty soon you don't have any choice.
"You have to surrender all that data to insurance companies or they won't insure you," he said.
Company spokesman William Perry says use of the auto data recorder will not be mandatory for Progressive customers.
"The key thing for us regarding the privacy aspect is the program is completely voluntary. It's not imposed on anybody," he said.
Julie Rochman, spokeswoman of the American Insurance Association, denied suggestions that the entire industry would adopt the monitors.
Most companies are comfortable with their current systems for measuring risk, which typically lump drivers into groups based on a variety of factors, she said.
"The bottom line is this is interesting, and they'll watch it," she said. "I'm not aware of any rush to do this kind of thing."
Drivers are under increased surveillance, by insurance companies and others. For example, cameras at intersections in many urban areas snap license-plate pictures of vehicles running red lights.
Many automakers already install so-called black boxes that record information for investigations into a crash or malfunction, although the data are not routinely transmitted. Last month, federal safety officials called on all automakers to install such devices.
From 1998 to 2001, Progressive ran a trial program in Texas that included a satellite tracking device to monitor where participants drove so they paid only for the insurance they used. The program was canceled because the gear was too expensive, the company said.
Insurers abroad are trying the data recorders, too.
In August, Norwich Union, the United Kingdom's largest auto insurer, announced it was testing a "pay as you drive" program involving 5,000 customers, under an agreement with Progressive. It tracks via satellite, like the Progressive program in Texas.
Robert Ledger, the U.K. program's director, says interest has been phenomenal: "We could have filled the pilot twice over with the amount of requests we've had from interested motorists."
Progressive's latest test in Minnesota, however, doesn't track where people drive. Sevlie said that would have been a show-stopper for him.
"That would scare me," he said. "If they were to do something like that, I would probably not want to be involved."
Progressive's Minnesota program requires a device that's plugged into a car's diagnostic port, available on all recent models. Besides driving habits, the device monitors when it's connected and disconnected so drivers aren't tempted to unplug it before speeding up to 100 mph. If a unit hasn't been connected 95 percent of the time, there's no discount.
But critics fear the information -- or, worse, the lack of information from participants who don't want to send negative data -- might be used against them.
And after the data are collected, individuals have no say in how it's used, Samuelson said.
"Once you give them the data, they own it," he said. "They can sell that data to anybody they want to, and you have no claim on it."
Perry, Progressive's spokesman, said the company will only use the data to determine discounts. It won't be used to increase rates if it reveals a customer with a lead foot, he said.
"This is strictly a discount program. We're very upfront with how we will and will not use the data," he said. "The only way we will use it is to look at it and say, 'Based on this, we're going to take X percentage off of the cost of your insurance for that vehicle.' Period."
And if the data is subpoenaed in legal action related to a driver's behavior?
"Generally speaking, if we are subpoenaed, we comply with the law," Perry said.
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I think all new GMs have the recorders. But then I'm sure in a few years every car sold here'll have them too.
BTW, with OnStar the FBI can listen in on what's being said inside the car. (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/12/10/213653.shtml )
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Since around '99, I believe that all GM vehicles (with the possible exception of some sold by GM but manufactured by others like Suzuki or Daewoo) have had an SDM which will record the last 5 seconds of speed, engine RPM, brake status and throttle position before an impact which deploys the airbags, or is nearly strong enough to deploy them (near-deployment event).
http://www.vetronix.com/diagnostics/cdr/faqs.html
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"Full_Name" wrote:
What new GM models are sold without the recorders? I want to replace my 1995 Olds 98 but I'm not sure I want to advertise my life to unknown parties. ____________________________________________________________
DIY Spyware is here now. See article below. Wendy & John.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = GLENDALE MAN ACCUSED OF STALKING BY GPS August 29, 2004
Police arrested a man they said tracked his ex-girlfriend's whereabouts by attaching a global positioning system to her car. The 32-year old man was arrested on one count of stalking and three counts of making criminal threats. Police allege he had threatened over a six-month period to kill the woman and himself. Held on $500,000 bail, he faces up to six years in prison if convicted.
Police said the stalker tracked the woman after she ended their relationship, showing up unexpectedly at a book store, an airport and dozens of other places. He had attached a cellular phone to the woman's car with a motion switch that turned on when the car moved, transmitting a signal each minute to a satellite. Information was then sent to a Web site that let him monitor her location. She discovered how he was tracking her when she found him under her car changing the cell phone's battery. ____________________________________________________________
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Full_Name wrote:

<much snipped>
Hi...
Have to ask. What's wrong with it? I'd happily sign up if they'd have me.
Ken
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wrote:

And when your insurance is voided because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time with your cars computer says you were going the wrong speed will you still be happy?
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Full_Name wrote:

Any GM vehicle with air bags has a "data recorder". It's built right into the SDM (there are other names for it, but it's basically the main air bag module), and as far as I know, right now it's nothing more then a simple "snapshot" type of recording that records data for a certain length of time. In other words, when you have an accident, the SDM takes the snapshot of data for (let's just say) 20 seconds before the accident. We cannot access the information at the dealership level with the Tech II scan tool.
This idea of constantly monitoring your driving habits is ridiculous and I hope that consumers everywhere will fight it. I don't see anything wrong with the data recorder built into the air bag module....that could have usefull info in a dispute.
Ian
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On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 08:54:39 GMT, "shiden_kai"

The kind of device I think was being described is a little module that plugs into the ODB-II port. It has NVRAM flash memory and records parameters. Every so often you can take it out of the car and plug it into the PC and dump the data, which can then be analyzed.
I've see something like this advertised but forget the name right now. They touted it as being able to monitor you kids driving habits or even just better track information for yourself. Now Progressive wants it. It just goes to show; science can be used for good or evil. Hehehe.
Okay I remembered it. One such device is called the Car Chip. Here is a site that sells them (among many) and provides some info on it. Keep in mind this device does NOT get info from the airbag control module.
http://www.familysafemedia.com/carchip_-_car_chip.html
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SgtSilicon wrote:

Interestng stuff, but once teens got wind of that device, it looks like it could be just unplugged, tossed in the glove box until you are a few blocks away from home and then re-inserted.
I had teenagers and I can't imagine having to spend that kind of time or money in order to track their driving habits. Let em get tickets.
Ian
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shiden_kai wrote:

And what did you say to them when they brought the car home with a piston rod hanging out the side of the block? ;) Better than body piercing i guess......
Bob

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Bob Urz wrote:

Oh we had to deal with the body piercing issue with one of them. Neither of them have blown up their cars yet, but the oldest one sure managed to thrash the one car that I fixed up for him. In one year, he managed to put over 50K kilometers on it, and I believe that I got one oil change....maybe two...done on it in that time. Fortunately, the engine used a lot of oil, so it was getting fresh oil every few weeks.
But if it had blown up, and he couldn't pay for the parts....(I give them the labour for free), then he'd be walking, biking, or buying a bus pass. As it was, the vehicle was so badly "thrashed" that he drove it down to the wrecking yard and got 50 dollars for it. Then I went out and got a 500 dollar Chryler product for him....it will be cheaper and easier to keep on the road then the GM product he had (Sunbird with the 2.0 OHC engine).
The younger son is much more responsible and consults me regularly about his car (another low dollar Chryler product, again....cheap and easy to fix) and we are keeping it in good running order. Plus, it helps that he happens to be working at the same place I work, so I can keep tabs on him and bring the car in the shop to work on it when necessary.
People think that kids are a handful when they are teenagers....wait until they move out of the house, I spend more time now running around, fixing things, helping them move, buying them stuff (they don't ask for anything, just that natural parenting thing kicking in).....etc.
It's so nice to have the house all to one's self.
Ian
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On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 16:02:40 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ihatespam.net (SgtSilicon) wrote:

Okay a followup. The actual manufacturer site:
http://www.davisnet.com/home_static.asp
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shiden_kai wrote:

Well, I own a car with an SDM and was slightly annoyed to find out after I bought the car that it came with one. Nowhere in the owner's manual does it warn you that your car may contain information that could be considered evidence against you.
It's no big deal, but GM didn't tell anyone this. Now I have to worry that if I get in an accident the police could seize the SDM to use against me. (They have already done this to other people.) Once again, I'm not worried (clean record) but this kind of "back door" type stuff needs to be dealt with before you end up with a mandatory onboard GPS speedometer to the central police computer....
Ray
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I bet the airlines wish that the NTSB wasn't able to seize airplane black boxes either. I'm glad they can though. I am totally for the black boxes in cars too. They help to find the truth. That's a good thing. So long as they are only used in a forensic capacity, and not in a tattle tale mode, I think it's good. By foresic I mean like skid marks and other things are examined as the result of a major mishap. By tattle tale mode I mean, hmm... you just drove "120mph, I'm going to transmit this to the authorities" type thing.
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wrote:

I dunno, I think as long as they can get to it then it can be self incriminating. Maybe this'll be something that'll reach the courts.
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Phillip Schmid wrote:

No, self incrimination is when they force you personally to give up the truth. Seeing as GM has not perfected psychic neural implants yet, we have a while yet to worry about that.
I liken this more along the lines of having a security camera in a convenience store. If someone robs a 7-11, kills a few people in the process and is then apprehended and convicted based on the video evidence, can the shooter argue he was forced to incriminate himself? No, he can't, because the camera didn't coerce him to do anything.
And before you say it, the courts so far do NOT feel that there is a reasonable expectation of privacy in your car. If that were the case, this guy would've been doing something that was perfectly legal:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_30-8-2004_pg9_15

Already has. The evidence has been used in a number of cases. Sometimes the data convicts, and other times, the data actually exonerates the driver. However, it's always been deemed admissible.
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On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 16:23:16 -0500, "Phillip Schmid"

Let's pretend there are no black boxes. Would you begrudge accident investigatoes the ability to physically examine YOUR vehicle (tires, crumpled areas, paint transfers, skid marks) on the basis that it violates your 4th or 5th amendment rights? I think most reasonable people understand that forensic evidence from property is not self incrimination. I think also that there is no violation of 4th amendement protections of the property, if it is sitting crumpled or battered state at the scene of an accident. That's pretty much clear cut probable cause if there ever was.
Back to black boxes. I am of the thinking that the 5 seconds of telemtry recorded by the black bax before an impact, and which is only examined upon accident investigation, fall squarely into the realm of forensics. And as such is okay by me.
What I would NOT be okay with, are systems that monitor AND report in real time or report anything at anytime if there is otherwise no cause to investigate.
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I wouldn't have any problem with them looking at my vehicle. But then that's all open and in public for everyone to view. The recorder on the other hand isn't. I'm against the black box because I consider it a gross invasion of privacy. Just the way I view it.
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On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:57:02 -0500, "Phillip Schmid"

Not all of what is looked at on a vehicle is "all open and in the public for anyone to view". For example, if the steering column linkage is hidden from view, would investigators be violating your privacy by examining it? Don't think so.
I understand the way you look it at. What I don't understand is why. Reasons given don't add up to me. Are their hidden reasons? I dunno, maybe we just think different.
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I'm not entirely sure why I'm against it either :P. It's just one of those things I guess. Different strokes for different folks.
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