Why are all these people knocking GM ?????????

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wrote in message news:4594ffeb$0$8925

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Lots of problems back then. Owned a Vega. Luckily my brother worked at the dealership. Just thought the rust through really typified their arrogance at selling crap that they thought people would just have to buy. Seemed to start in the late sixties but was just unbelievable in the late seventies and eighties. Soft cams good for 30K. The 350 diesel.
Ironically my step-father had an early 80's Olds(gasoline engine) he put 350K+ on, much of it pulling a 22ft trailer. Without any driveline problems. Finally gave up on it when the body could no longer be held together.
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In other words you believe the crappy cars from the US and Europe were good enough to still be around but the crappy cars form Japan were not?
You are smart enough to know that is only an opinion. My opinion is far different. I have owned many import brands from VW to Lexus they were no better or worse than any of the domestic I have owned. They cost me more, but that is the only difference I discovered. I now buy domestics. The fact is every manufacture today is building good stuff, even the Koreans. Apparently more Americans agree with my opinion than yours, since today they buy more vehicles from GM and Ford than any import. ;)
mike

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Mike Hunter wrote:

You can stop typing your boilerplate reply (or are you copying from a text document on your hard drive?) any time, "mike." Anyone with a lick of sense knows you're wrong. All you're proving is that you are incapable of evaluating quality.
nate
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That may be your opinion but what I do know for a fact, based on sales, more Americans prefer the quality of the current GM and Ford vehicles than the quality of any import brand,. Whether you agree or not is immaterial, you can spend your money wherever you wish. I know I do. Surely you do not expect to find only those that agree with your personal opinion in a GM NG. If that is what you want, try one of the Jap brand NGs, WBMA Try a Toyota NG, those guys would have others believe they never breakdown and if they do Toyota will fix them forever. LOL
. mike

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Mike Hunter wrote:

What makes you think I like Toyotas? I don't particularly, except maybe if someone offered me a twin-turbo Supra I'd be tempted. I am here because I *have* a GM car, although most of the content of this NG seems to be this constant back and forth that you perpetuate rather than real technical information.
Perhaps I should pose some questions:
1) What can I do to my Impala so the front end doesn't sound like it's going to fall apart? It's only got 35K miles but it sounds like my old VW did at about 150K miles when the front strut bearings commonly went. Is there a common failure point, or is the whole front end trash?
2) How can I reprogram my transmission so it does not constantly shift and lock/unlock the torque converter?
3) What can I do to temper the loud, blatty exhaust note? It's louder than my Porsche, not nearly as aesthetically pleasing, and frankly, embarassing.
4) Is there any way that I can get enough power out of the car so it isn't constantly downshifting on freeway upgrades?
5) Is there any way that I can retrofit a rear seat that folds down?
6) Is there any way that I can get enough range of adjustment on the tone of the stereo so it doesn't sound like some "boom-boom" system that a techno-loving riceboy installed?
7) I think my car has the wrong column shifter installed. It appears to be a GMC truck part and sticks out way past the steering wheel. Does anyone have the correct GM part number for a column shifter for an '05 Impala?
8) I'm missing my gauges. The car seems to have been built without any of the gauges except for a speedometer, temp gauge, and fuel gauge. If you see them, please let me know.
9) I assume the sound like a coffee can full of bolts being shaken when I engage the A/C is normal?
thanks,
nate
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N8N wrote:

Forgot some.
10) Is there any way to retrofit a proper parking brake? The "kick to release" pedal is useless (as you can't use it as a true emergency brake) and also traps the sole of my shoe under the kick panel, being so close to it. Also, it doesn't work anymore.
11) Is there any way to move the pedals and steering wheel farther towards the rear of the car? I'm only 6' tall but have a hard time folding my legs up enough to exit the car gracefully with the seat in a comfortable driving position.
12) is there any way to retrofit a proper door check strap? The doors are death traps and more than once I've ended up cursing the car because the door will swing closed on me while trying to contort myself out of the car (usually while holding a coffee mug.)
13) Any recommendations for tires that aren't ludicrously tractionless?
14) Exactly how many times do I need to push "unlock" on the remote before the doors actually unlock? Normal procedure seems to be hit button twice, attempt to pull door open, catch fingernail on door handle as hand slips out from underneath, curse, repeat several times, open door.
15) Is there any way to raise the car for more ground clearance? I physically cannot get the car into my driveway without severely scraping the underside. Which is odd, since my Porsche can be driven straight up into it.
I'm sure I will have more questions, but that's it for now, I think.
nate
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Seems to me you should have test driven that vehicle before you made the purchase. . ;)
mike

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I didn't buy it, it's a company car.
Most people don't *buy* GM cars. They drive them because that's what their employer buys, or that's what's available at the rental counter. And then they have experiences like mine, and they continue to not buy GM cars as a result of same.
nate
Mike Hunter wrote:

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Perhaps you should be looking at how well you employer maintains their vehicles. ;)
mike

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Most of the issues I listed are shitty DESIGN not shitty maintenance.
The car is a POS. Face facts.
I could probably have the nonfunctional parking brake repaired, but I shouldn't have to. I could probably have the tires replaced with ones that actually function well, but I shouldn't have to. (and that would have to be at my own expense, since they still have tread left.) How would you suggest the lack of power, thrashiness, busy transmission, and poor ergonomics be addressed? (there's SO many ergonomic problems that this car has that German cars had figured out at least by the early '80s that I doubt I could list them all if I tried.) What about the ludicrously low ground clearance?
The sad thing is that the exterior body design is not unattractive, to the point that I thought when I first got it that I might take extra special care of it because I thought it might be acceptable as a personal vehicle and I'd buy it out personally when the lease was up. It's not my type of car, but generally you can get a good deal by buying out your own company car. But after having spent a little more than a year with it, I can't wait until it hits 70K so I can trade it in on something else. There's really nothing to recommend it other than I don't have to pay for it.
Driving this car has done nothing but strongly reinforce my belief that it's always better to buy a cheap, beat up German car rather than a new American one. I fondly remember my old 535i that I used to have; at 200K miles and apparently abused by its previous owner, it was still FAR more pleasant to drive than the Impala. (and I feel that that's a fair comparison, as it's almost the exact same size and is targeted at the same market, albeit in a higher price bracket.) There's a REASON that people spend the extra money both up front and in maintenance to drive the cars that you so constantly deride - they really are better.
Now I don't expect for GM to build me a BMW. There's a reason that they cost so much. But when I was in college, my roommate had a 70's Impala that he'd inherited from his grandfather. Even though that car was built in the darkest years of the smog era, it was FAR more acceptable as transportation than the '05. I think I'd rather have one of those if it came to it, assuming that I could find one that hadn't rusted away to nothing still.
nate
Mike Hunter wrote:

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The days when engineers and tech exchanged information in the NGs, are long gone. Today it is just guys looking for a free fix, or to bitch. You will get no help from me, take it to competent tech, WBMA. When I teach a school I get paid. ;)
mike

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they
I agree, when a coworker mentioned buying a Japanese car, I asked him how many 20 year old Japanese cars he had ever seen. He couldn't name one.
He is looking to replace an 80's caddy that only gets about 10 mpg, he just doesn't realize that he won't get a car that will last like the caddy.
Down here in Texas I commonly see vintage mustangs, 70's pickups and Suburbans, etc, my grand am is a 93 and runs better than a modern Ford Taurus that I had to use when my car was in the shop after someone hit it while parked.
Up north where a car rusts away in 10 years, it may not matter, but down here an American car will last as long as you take care of it.
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Cadillacs used to be good cars. And, the people who bought them traditionally did not drive them hard, and performed the required service and repairs. I know a lady who has a DeVille, always garaged, that is a 70 model, I believe, and it only has about 30,000 miles on it. She is willing it to her yardman.
It is true that here in Texas most cars dont rust out so badly (exceptions are the GM rear window designed corrosion cells) unless you live along the beach.
I dont really think your observations carry a lot of evidence in the quality wars. Lots of factors go into this.
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Where I live cars rust a lot. There is salt, snow, wet, hot, cold, whatever it takes to let cars rust. Not many cars last 10 years in good condition around here.
Toyotas have proven to be best in these conditions and they have had the top selling every year for many years. They have over 25% of the market. A long time ago american cars used to have the top selling but that was very very very long time ago. They hardly show up on the top selling charts anymore. You can guess why that is and I can give a clue. It has to do with overall costs and quality or lack thereof. I guess the situation is similar in other parts of the world.
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Better do a bit more research, your information in not correct. Toyota is up but Toyota had barely 15% of the market in the US in 2006, not 25%. Domestics sold nearly 10 million of the 16.5 million vehicles sold in the US in 2006
US Commerce sales figures for 2006
GM 4.5 million Ford 3 million Toyota 2.5 million Chrysler 2.4 million Honda 2 million Nissan 1 millions The remainder sold less than 1 million
The top seller was the Ford F150 at a rate nearly twice that of the Camry, which was number three in sales. Number two was the Chevy Silverado.
mike

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GM, Ford and Chrysler are all losing money and have been cutting North American production as their U.S. sales decline.
Ford said yesterday that it's quitting the minivan segment and will end production of its Freestar. Sales of the model fell 35 percent last year. Instead, Ford will promote its so-called crossover vehicles, such as the Ford Edge and Lincoln MKX.
GM persuaded 34,000 workers to take buyouts in 2006 and sold a majority of its finance unit after reporting about $13.7 billion in losses over the past eight quarters. Ford, which lost almost $7 billion in last year's first nine months, is buying out 38,000 union employees.
U.S. automakers may not be able to end sales declines for several years while they develop more fuel-efficient vehicles, said George Magliano, director of auto research at Global Insight Inc. in New York. High gasoline prices are ``entrenched in the consumer mind and they are going to be looking for alternatives,'' such as small SUVs, he said.
Maker Volume %Chng Share GM* 4,028,992 -8.5 24.3 Ford* 2,719,959 -7.6 16.4 Toyota 2,542,524 +12.9 15.4 Chrysler* 2,142,505 -6.7 12.9 Honda 1,509,358 +3.5 9.1 Nissan 1,019,249 -5.0 6.2
Toyota saw 12.9% sales growth, with Toyota's Prius sales jumping to 260% their numbers from a year ago. Honda, which usually wears the energy efficiency leader's hat, saw a nearly 3.5% increase in sales.
In sharp contrast, the sales of new cars sold by General Motors and other American automakers in March posted decreases from a year earlier.
The story goes on to make the conclusion that many have been hesitant about: It shows that energy-efficient Japanese cars have become increasingly popular with U.S. consumers due to the sharp rise in oil prices.
Mike Hunter wrote:

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I've had no problems with the rust resistance of my Chrysler cars since the 80s. I drive in all weather conditions and driving to ski hills certainly gives the body a work out. We've kept out last four Chrysler cars 10, 14; now 6 and 12 yrs -still counting. Chrysler was earlier than most foreign cars with galvanized body metal and has used lifetime stainless steel exhausts since '87.
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A couple of corrections on that thread. Where do people come up with this stuff? The top selling vehicles in the US are sold by GM and Ford. Their vehicles are the sales leaders in nearly every class. Toyota likes to say they are the number one car BRAND in America.. The fact is the only individual model Toyota that leads its class is the Camry, in sales of midsize sedans. However GM sells more midsized sedans, as well as more cars and trucks than Toyota but they have different brand names on the grill. Ford also sells more than the Toyota brand but they have different names on the grill as well.
Toyota had never had 25% of the US market 'for many years' or any year for that matter. 2006 was the first year Toyota got to 15%. Both GM and Ford sold millions more vehicles in the US than did Toyota or any other import. The number one selling vehicle in the US in 2006 was the Ford F150 and it has been number one for thirty years. The Silverado outsold the Camry as well in 2006. Do a bit more research on who sells what in the US, WBMA
Ford was the first manufacturer to make its cars and trucks with the so called 'stainless steel exhaust systems.' Those exhaust system would last a 'lifetime,' even several lifetimes IF they were indeed made of, and welded with, 'Stainless' steel but they are not made of, or welded with, SS. They are made with .002 of an inch of stainless alloy bonded to mild steel and welded with nickel compound mild steel (#7018). A product developed by the late Bethlehem Steel Company in 1983. It is more akin to galvanized steel and more than twice as expensive per ton. Stainless steel, in comparison, is sold by the pound
mike
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Pretty much any car is going to last over 10 years up north now without the rust problems of old. I've consistently kept GM's in upstate NY for over 10 years and did not suffer rust through problems. Notwithstanding the issues of the late 70's and early 80's, most cars are holding up against rust quite well now.
--

-Mike-
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Some of the older Fords - perhaps Thunderbirds and Mustangs- were partially dipped in a zinc rich primer before being painted, I am told. If true, this is one reason why those cars are still on the road today.
Dont know if other companies did,or do, follow this procedure.
Fiat had a different approach. That sheet metal was essentilly pre-rusted.:>)
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