Why are all these people knocking GM ?????????

I didn't buy it, it's a company car.

Most people don't *buy* GM cars. They drive them because that's what their employer buys, or that's what's available at the rental counter. And then they have experiences like mine, and they continue to not buy GM cars as a result of same.

nate

Mike Hunter wrote:

Perhaps you should be looking at how well you employer maintains their vehicles. ;)

mike

Most of the issues I listed are shitty DESIGN not shitty maintenance.

The car is a POS. Face facts.

I could probably have the nonfunctional parking brake repaired, but I shouldn't have to. I could probably have the tires replaced with ones that actually function well, but I shouldn't have to. (and that would have to be at my own expense, since they still have tread left.) How would you suggest the lack of power, thrashiness, busy transmission, and poor ergonomics be addressed? (there's SO many ergonomic problems that this car has that German cars had figured out at least by the early '80s that I doubt I could list them all if I tried.) What about the ludicrously low ground clearance?

The sad thing is that the exterior body design is not unattractive, to the point that I thought when I first got it that I might take extra special care of it because I thought it might be acceptable as a personal vehicle and I'd buy it out personally when the lease was up. It's not my type of car, but generally you can get a good deal by buying out your own company car. But after having spent a little more than a year with it, I can't wait until it hits 70K so I can trade it in on something else. There's really nothing to recommend it other than I don't have to pay for it.

Driving this car has done nothing but strongly reinforce my belief that it's always better to buy a cheap, beat up German car rather than a new American one. I fondly remember my old 535i that I used to have; at

200K miles and apparently abused by its previous owner, it was still FAR more pleasant to drive than the Impala. (and I feel that that's a fair comparison, as it's almost the exact same size and is targeted at the same market, albeit in a higher price bracket.) There's a REASON that people spend the extra money both up front and in maintenance to drive the cars that you so constantly deride - they really are better.

Now I don't expect for GM to build me a BMW. There's a reason that they cost so much. But when I was in college, my roommate had a 70's Impala that he'd inherited from his grandfather. Even though that car was built in the darkest years of the smog era, it was FAR more acceptable as transportation than the '05. I think I'd rather have one of those if it came to it, assuming that I could find one that hadn't rusted away to nothing still.

nate

Mike Hunter wrote:

I agree, when a coworker mentioned buying a Japanese car, I asked him how many 20 year old Japanese cars he had ever seen. He couldn't name one.

He is looking to replace an 80's caddy that only gets about 10 mpg, he just doesn't realize that he won't get a car that will last like the caddy.

Down here in Texas I commonly see vintage mustangs, 70's pickups and Suburbans, etc, my grand am is a 93 and runs better than a modern Ford Taurus that I had to use when my car was in the shop after someone hit it while parked.

Up north where a car rusts away in 10 years, it may not matter, but down here an American car will last as long as you take care of it.

Cadillacs used to be good cars. And, the people who bought them traditionally did not drive them hard, and performed the required service and repairs. I know a lady who has a DeVille, always garaged, that is a 70 model, I believe, and it only has about 30,000 miles on it. She is willing it to her yardman.

It is true that here in Texas most cars dont rust out so badly (exceptions are the GM rear window designed corrosion cells) unless you live along the beach.

I dont really think your observations carry a lot of evidence in the quality wars. Lots of factors go into this.

Where I live cars rust a lot. There is salt, snow, wet, hot, cold, whatever it takes to let cars rust. Not many cars last 10 years in good condition around here.

Toyotas have proven to be best in these conditions and they have had the top selling every year for many years. They have over 25% of the market. A long time ago american cars used to have the top selling but that was very very very long time ago. They hardly show up on the top selling charts anymore. You can guess why that is and I can give a clue. It has to do with overall costs and quality or lack thereof. I guess the situation is similar in other parts of the world.

Better do a bit more research, your information in not correct. Toyota is up but Toyota had barely 15% of the market in the US in 2006, not 25%. Domestics sold nearly 10 million of the 16.5 million vehicles sold in the US in 2006

US Commerce sales figures for 2006

GM 4.5 million Ford 3 million Toyota 2.5 million Chrysler 2.4 million Honda 2 million Nissan 1 millions The remainder sold less than 1 million

The top seller was the Ford F150 at a rate nearly twice that of the Camry, which was number three in sales. Number two was the Chevy Silverado.

mike

Pretty much any car is going to last over 10 years up north now without the rust problems of old. I've consistently kept GM's in upstate NY for over 10 years and did not suffer rust through problems. Notwithstanding the issues of the late 70's and early 80's, most cars are holding up against rust quite well now.

Some of the older Fords - perhaps Thunderbirds and Mustangs- were partially dipped in a zinc rich primer before being painted, I am told. If true, this is one reason why those cars are still on the road today.

Dont know if other companies did,or do, follow this procedure.

Fiat had a different approach. That sheet metal was essentilly pre-rusted.:>)

GM galvanizes a lot of the metal.

GM, Ford and Chrysler are all losing money and have been cutting North American production as their U.S. sales decline.

Ford said yesterday that it's quitting the minivan segment and will end production of its Freestar. Sales of the model fell 35 percent last year. Instead, Ford will promote its so-called crossover vehicles, such as the Ford Edge and Lincoln MKX.

GM persuaded 34,000 workers to take buyouts in 2006 and sold a majority of its finance unit after reporting about $13.7 billion in losses over the past eight quarters. Ford, which lost almost $7 billion in last year's first nine months, is buying out 38,000 union employees.

U.S. automakers may not be able to end sales declines for several years while they develop more fuel-efficient vehicles, said George Magliano, director of auto research at Global Insight Inc. in New York. High gasoline prices are ``entrenched in the consumer mind and they are going to be looking for alternatives,'' such as small SUVs, he said.

Maker Volume %Chng Share GM* 4,028,992 -8.5 24.3 Ford* 2,719,959 -7.6 16.4 Toyota 2,542,524 +12.9 15.4 Chrysler* 2,142,505 -6.7 12.9 Honda 1,509,358 +3.5 9.1 Nissan 1,019,249 -5.0 6.2

Toyota saw 12.9% sales growth, with Toyota's Prius sales jumping to

260% their numbers from a year ago. Honda, which usually wears the energy efficiency leader's hat, saw a nearly 3.5% increase in sales.

In sharp contrast, the sales of new cars sold by General Motors and other American automakers in March posted decreases from a year earlier.

The story goes > Better do a bit more research, your information in not correct. Toyota is

Rusting cars of yore had little to do with how cars were treated or painted. The rust that started to appear in cars in the early seventies was a result for a new steel making process know as the Basic Oxygen Furnace. Pryor to the BOF, steel was produced in open-hearth furnaces. O-HF used fuel oil to melt the mix of iron and its amalgams in a tub like furnace. The BOF did not use a fuel but rqather the combustibles in the mix by burning them in a high oxygen atmosphere, blown through the mix via a stainless steel lance driven down into a ladle like electric furnace. After a time, as cars the used BOF steel began to rust, it became apparent the "blow" needed to be a few second longer to completely eliminate the impurities that remained in the steel. In other word the rust started within the steel, not from the outside. Current BOF steel is "cleaner" than O-HF steel.

It is an awesome experience to see the blow rod driven down into a 100 ton vat at several feet per second, as it is consumed with a deafening roar. ;)

mike

Both companies used single and double sided galvanized steel in lower body components. The rust problem developed later in Fords, than GM vehicles, because GM used steel made by US Steel Co and Ford used steel made by Bethlehem Steel Co. BSCO switched to BOF steel several years after USS. The best steel used in cars today is the 'dentless sheet' steel made by the Mittal Steel Co, at the former BSCO Burns Harbor Michigan plant. Most of the steel used in Japanese cars, assembled in the US and Canada, is made by Nippon Steel Co and imported from Japan

mike

Obviously you own an oil well. Many of us couldn't afford to drive a 10mpg car.

I've had no problems with the rust resistance of my Chrysler cars since the 80s. I drive in all weather conditions and driving to ski hills certainly gives the body a work out. We've kept out last four Chrysler cars 10, 14; now 6 and 12 yrs -still counting. Chrysler was earlier than most foreign cars with galvanized body metal and has used lifetime stainless steel exhausts since '87.

A couple of corrections on that thread. Where do people come up with this stuff? The top selling vehicles in the US are sold by GM and Ford. Their vehicles are the sales leaders in nearly every class. Toyota likes to say they are the number one car BRAND in America.. The fact is the only individual model Toyota that leads its class is the Camry, in sales of midsize sedans. However GM sells more midsized sedans, as well as more cars and trucks than Toyota but they have different brand names on the grill. Ford also sells more than the Toyota brand but they have different names on the grill as well.

Toyota had never had 25% of the US market 'for many years' or any year for that matter. 2006 was the first year Toyota got to 15%. Both GM and Ford sold millions more vehicles in the US than did Toyota or any other import. The number one selling vehicle in the US in 2006 was the Ford F150 and it has been number one for thirty years. The Silverado outsold the Camry as well in 2006. Do a bit more research on who sells what in the US, WBMA

Ford was the first manufacturer to make its cars and trucks with the so called 'stainless steel exhaust systems.' Those exhaust system would last a 'lifetime,' even several lifetimes IF they were indeed made of, and welded with, 'Stainless' steel but they are not made of, or welded with, SS. They are made with .002 of an inch of stainless alloy bonded to mild steel and welded with nickel compound mild steel (#7018). A product developed by the late Bethlehem Steel Company in 1983. It is more akin to galvanized steel and more than twice as expensive per ton. Stainless steel, in comparison, is sold by the pound

mike