1st service fo my 05 Accord

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Thank you for proving my point with your inane diatribe. As I said, there's one in every group.
What you seem incapable of recognizing is that this is my maintenance
schedule for my car. It has nothing to do with airplane pilots, inspection crews, or fleet managers. Admittedly, though, if they wanted to go beyond the minimum requirements for me, I'd be grateful. I presume that you wouldn't be. After all, why do anything beyond the minimum requirements if you don't have to? Gee, you might save $5 a year.
As for customers being charged extra ??? WTF is that about? In my case, it costs me less to change the oil myself with Mobil 1 than it does to have it done by the dealer. So if it costs me $22 per change x 3 changes per year $66 versus 2 changes x $31 per change = $62, I'd say that for an extra $4 annually, I'm getting a hell a deal! As an experienced mechanic, I find that to be an excellent trade off. Something you don't seem to understand.

Is he suggesting that you followed your own advice on extended oill change intervals. LOL

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On 9/8/2005 5:18 AM doug spake these words of knowledge:

No, Doug. I'm him. Trust me.
RFT!!! Dave Kelsen
--
... I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don't care.

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Does the vehicle in question have an oil life monitor (OLM)? I ask because my Ridgeline truck has one and the manual states that oil should be changed (and this is true of the factory fill as well) when the monitor falls between 15% and 0% oil life expectancy. For most owners of Ridgelines at least, this service due notice appears between 5,000 and 7,000 miles, depending on driving habits.
The OLM is a better way to determine oil change interval than some arbitrary mileage/time factor such as 3000 miles/6 months - today's engines and oil packs are much better than that. Even though the OLM assumes dino oil is being used, if an extra margin of safety is required due to "severe" use, it is not necessary as before to do more frequent changes but rather use better oil such as your GRP III and GRP IV and synthetics. Chances are the oil interval will be extended as well as you can go right to the "0%" notice on the monitor, especially with synthetics.
OLMs are very sophisticated and are not the idiot light mileage counters of old. Today's OLMs measure how we actually drive and bases it assumptions on our driving habits. It does so by recording many things such as temps and engine revolutions and places penalties on things like short trip, cold start driving. The software is matched to the particular engine in the car and this is very important.
As far as the factory fill is concerned and when to change it, much depends on the oil you intend to use. Honda does not use some special factory oil. It is a Superflo formula made by ExxonMobil but it is super rich in moly. This moly additive, however, is not in the oil pack itself but rather is part of the factory assembly lube and when mixed with the oil provides an extra measure of safety during the critical break-in period, hence, they want to make sure this formula is in there for as long as possible. BTW, the old notion of removing engine ware particles is of no concern these days due to tight tolerances and improved filtering. This is true at least with the higher tech engines made by Honda. Now, if Honda knew for a fact you were to change out oil with something like Havoline dino or Redline synthetic (which are very rich in moly) you could probably change the factory fill sooner than recommended - but why do it? Let the monitor be your guide and follow the manual except only under the most severe driving conditions.
Here is how I plan on doing it with my Ridgeline. I will change factory fill when the OLM hits 15% with a quality dino such as Havoline or maybe even a good blend like Mobil Clean 7500 or Motorcraft 5w20. I will use only the Filtech or Nippon made filters and NOT the Fram/Honeywell. My second oil change will be with the same oil and then a sample of that drain will be sent to Blackstone labs for analysis. This will tell me if my OCIs are timely and if the engine likes the oil I have chosen. If there is any problem noted, especially in the TBN, which indicates oil life depletion, I will switch to a good full synthetic and try that. I have to assume the Accord would also be well served with this kind of approach.
MARTY
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shortspark wrote:

i had an entirely negative experience using kotorcraft 5w30 in my civic. it made it sound rattly, so bad i was wondering if the engine was shot, and this was compounded by the oil seals leaking lke crazy. and i mean crazy. at stop lights, clouds of smoke were coming up out from under the hood where the main seal was leaking onto the exhaust. castrol gtx quieted up the engine so it sounds "normal" and the leak has subsided almost completely. doesn't drip on the driveway any more.
neither may of be particular concern on your new vehicle, but any oil that behaves like that on an older engine does not bode well for your future.

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I don't know anything about the Motorcraft 5w30 but I think it is an entirely different pack than the 5w20. In fact, I do not believe the 5w30 is even a synthetic blend, but rather a plain dino oil. Used oil analysis reports maintained on the Bobistheoilguy.com site show the Motorcraft 5w20 to be a terrific engine lubricant.
However, what you intimate is true in that different cars react differently to driving styles and type of oil used. That is why the $40 spent for a lab analysis of your used oil is money well spent. Of course in your case no report was necessary, the problem was obvious. In most cases it is not that noticeable.
MARTY
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shortspark wrote:

well, when i looked at both bottles in the store, the "info" on the bottles was the same. besides, what exactly is "synthetic blend"? there's no recognized definition. other than being a great advertising tool of course.

really? i've just looked, but in the couple of minutes i spent poking about, i don't see it. please post a link so i can read that report too.

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Jim, I double checked the Virgin Oil analysis reports at BITOG site and the 5w20 and the new 5w30 are indeed both synthetic blends. I don't think this was always the case however and the 5w30 you had such bad results from may have been the older, straight dino stock - it all depends when you bought it. Here is a quote from BITOG and the source is probably Ford but I'm not sure about that:
"This new oil (5w20) has been designed to provide the durability, cleanliness, and fuel economy expected of a Motorcraft product. Tests show it outperforms our own SAE 5w30 Super Premium Motor Oil. This oil has been thoroughly evaluated by Ford. It has performed flawlessly in over 300 dynamometer durability tests and has undergone vehicle testing, reaching as high as 250,000 miles in some cases. This is an oil you can trust. This new oil truly "exceeds the need". Refer to Owners Manual to determine which vehicles should be serviced with 5w20. Refer to TSB 01-4-7 for a listing of older vehicles which should be serviced with this oil".
Since then, it appears Motorcraft has introduced their 5w30 as a synthetic blend as well, however, a look at the Virgin Oil reports for both shows that they are a little different in their additive packs, most notably in factors such as zinc, iron and copper although moly content is nearly the same.
Synthetic blends such as these and others from the Phillips stall (TropArtic 5w30 and Kendall) are hard to define, as you point out, since there is no exact measure as to how much dino and how much synthetic must be in the mix before it qualifies as a "blend". Mobil Clean 7500 is rumored to contain a third synthetic but Mobil always keeps their formulas close to the vest.
I agree too that "blend" is a marketing tool but they are suppose to provide longer oil change intervals than straight dino which usually shows wear at, and should not exceed, about 5000 miles in normal driving conditions. Full synthetics are said to be able to go 10,000 miles so somewhere in between seems to make sense for the "blends". They are usually priced "in between" dino and full synthetic as well.
If you go to the BIOTG site and click on the forums you will find many different forum links, including Virgin Oil Analysis and Used Oil Analysis as well as general lubrication and gasoline engine oil forums. Try doing a search of "Motorcraft 5w20" at any of these and there will be many threads listed where you can read reviews of analysis reports and general comments about the Motorcraft oil (there are even some in which it was used in Honda engines). You will find that, like any oil, some are good and some not so good but, along with Havoline straight dino 5w20, you will see that most of the oil geeks there consider it among the best.
MARTY
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snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (shortspark) wrote:

Consider: ALL motor oil sold today is a synthetic blend.
There is NO "straight dino oil" being sold for automotive use.
ALL oils have (drum roll, please) synthetic compounds blended in--commonly known as the "additive package".
So technically, every oil can advertise itself as a "synthetic blend".
You've been owned.
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shortspark wrote:

mine was definitely "synthetic blend". i still have a bottle i'm going to throw into recycling.

the "TSB" makes it sound like ford propaganda to me!

those are all fine solid state additives, but they do nothing for thixotropy [the property that affects grade with temperature - otherwise known as viscosity index improver] or seal conditioning. the thixotropy thing is very important because either insufficient quantity or quality can quickly break down leaving you with thin runny base that may not be able to sustain the right hydro-dynamic film engines depend on. [if i really wanted to be contrarian, i'd even ask why it's even worth bothering with solid state lubes, moly, etc., if the hydrodynamic film is being sufficiently sustained - but i'm not a tribologist.] and simply measuring viscosity alone is not necessarily the answer because it's usually measured at 100C whereas pistons & rings operate at higher temps than that, and that soot/combustion product can increase viscosity while decreasing lubricity. i think this was the situation i experienced - and the reason the engine sounded like it was about to fall apart - the oil film needs to be right because it keeps parts "floating" on oil, not directly touching. regarding seal conditioning, same thing, you need sufficient quantity & quality of the right organic conditioners to do the job.
now, here's the rub regarding traditional oil analysis - it won't show you /any/ info on these organic additives!!! the relevant compounds for both those jobs are not metallics so they don't show on the spark spectrometry or acid/base reading! oil analysis is an /excellent/ tool for assessing wear product and therefore engine health, but from what i can see, without the ability to detect or quantify organic contents, it's next to useless as a measure of initial oil quality.

when mobil 1 first came out, didn't they claim 30k between changes? to back away from that as mobil have done, it means that either 1. their initial claims were bogus 2. they're now scared of law suits 3. they've changed formulation, or 4. like everyone else, the bean counters are interested in sales volume, so forget the facts!

thanks marty! i may try havoline next time. but for the moment, i'm happy with castrol gtx. especially on the crude & unscientific basis of keeping my engine quiet & leak free!
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Beware that on my manual, it says there is special breakin oil that Honda initially uses, and warns you against replacing it early as it interferes with the breakin process.
-MVL
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This is also for the '05 Accord? If so, could you tell me which page? When I purchased my Accord, the salesman recommended changing it within 4k miles. I asked him about the break-in oil and he didn't know anything about it. He called me the next day and said he spoke w/the service department who said there is no more breakin oil. Just additives in the initial oil. I skimmed the manual but did not *read* everything that carefully.
Thanks, -Dave
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<snipped for space>

Rick, I have always changed my engine oil and filter at the 5000 km mark, regardless of what the owners manual or dealership says. I feel that it is a small price to pay for peace of mind. I also rotate my tires at the same time (one appointment and no wasted time). The fact that so many people have ignored is that you live in Northern Ontario, as far as I am concerned that is a real good reason for changing the oil more frequently than the manual recommends. I live in Halifax and I firmly believe that more is better when it comes to frequency of changes.
Brian
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