340,000 KM 2003 Accord Ex Oil Viscosity Issue

Here's the latest word on 5w20 vs 0w30 viscosity in a 2003 Honda Accord EX. i am sure that many of you have wondered and read about why certain companies like Honda and Ford are using 5w20 insead of say
5w30 or 5w40 as in European cars. Contrary to the popular belief that Honda used 5w20 to meet CAFE requirements it is mostly due to engine tolerances. I have recently opened the Accord engine cover to examine the valve clearance as the valves started to get a bit noisy. To my surprise I have noticed slight groves and pitting in the cam lobes. A mechanis from the US has asked me if I were using a wrong oil. I asked what is wrong oil. He asked whether I used a higher viscosity oil higher than 5w20. I said I used Amsoil 0w30. What he claimed is that the camshafts did not get adequate volume of oil and the fact that they are the furthest in oil circuit, they got less oil than they should have due to lower flow of oil. This is theoretically possible, but I am not sure that pitting of the lobe material is due to reduced lubication. To me it looks like poor quality of material or poor quality control during manufacturing of the camshafts. The vehicle still does not burn more oil than it did when it was much newer i.e. 0.5l per 10,000Km. I am now going to switch to synthetic 5w20 in hope that the cams and the followers will last until 500,000Km. Does anyone have similar experience with their camshafts?
Dan.
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<snip gibberish>
You're talking through your hat, Mr. Metric Slave.
Below is one of the most critical clearances in any engine, one that has a lot to do with oil pressure and consumption.
1991 Integra, 5W-30 oil specified. Crank bearing clearance: .0007"-.0017", max .0020"
2003 RSX, 5W-20 oil specified. Crank bearing clearance: .0007"-.0016", max .0020".
All the other relevant clearances I can find in my manuals are similarly identical. 5W-20 is specified for CAFE reasons and no other.
And just for fun I looked up the same clearance on a 1952 Ford OHV six. .0005"-.0021". Whaddya know. You suppose they were using 5W-20 in 1952?
--
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Tegger wrote:

Heh heh heh... It's amazing on how specs for machanical components have hardly changed over the years ain't it?
The biggest issue with camshaft wear as far as I can tell is the reformulation of engine oils that remove direct contact "cushions."
This is an issue facing a lot of owners of older cars and is yet another guv'ment mandate. (I can't speak for youse Canadians though).
To the best of my knowledge, only oils that meet Caterpillar's diesel standard still have these ingredients. (Caterpillar uses Shell Rotella from what I understand).
But, I'm not going to lose any sleep over this nonsense. I have a few extra camshafts (and lifter sets) to keep me runnin' for a few years...
<G>
JT
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There is some evidence that organo-moly offers the same "wear pad" protection that ZDDP used to provide. The API has not yet conducted tests to definitively confirm this, though.
It's my understanding that engines with excessive cam-train wear rates are performance engines with flat tappets, high spring rates and high- lift cams. Your average road car has sufficiently developed metallurgy that cam-train wear is not an issue even in the absence of ZDDP.

The API has stated on the record that older engines exhibit no excessive wear with low-ZDDP GF-4 oils.
ZDDP is not the be-all-and-end-all of wear protection.
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Tegger wrote:

I share the same assessment and hope that your, er, I'm right.
And then there was that issue of valve seats being a problem when lead was removed from gas. That has generally not proven to be the case with Studebakers. So far so good..

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Again, from extensive reading, it's my impression that valve seat recession in the absence of TEL occurs primarily in situations that contain some or all of the following: high revs; high spring rates; high cam lift.
I'm seeing many reports that most standard pre-unleaded road-going engines are getting by just fine without lead protection. Mind you, most of the vehicles containing such engines are now considered "classics" and are generally driven in a very sympathetic manner.
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Grumpy AuContraire wrote:

Prove that this is a guv'ment mandate.

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ZDDP was drastically lowered in gasoline motor oils in order to meet government-imposed warranty requirements on catalytic converter life. It happened around 1995, with the introduction of government-imposed OBD-II.
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Tegger wrote:

Thanks Tegger... Don'tcha just luv every twerp that comes along and demands, "cite, cite, cite."
JT
(Back to the jug o' Pinch)
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He'd rather pick a fight than look it up himself.
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Tegger wrote:

Yup and I'm 6'1'' and have massive 24" arms, 30" waste, weight a fightin' 200 lbs and hide regularly behind my widescreen monitor...
<G>
JT
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You might have a point here. I also called Amsoil to discuss the difference between 2 oils in the engine and the situation. They have also firmly suggested not to switch to 5w20 whether it be Amsoil's or Honda's oil as it will accelerate the wear of other components which are currently functioning properly. It appears that a lot of people don't like the 5w20 oil. It would be interesting to find out if there are other higher milage vehicles out there that have used 5w20 exclusively.
Thanks.
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193,000 miles (I think that works out to 308,000km) on an '01 Accord EX-V6 doing oil changes approx every 7500 or so (when the maint light comes on) using nothing but 5w20.
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If your car was not designed for 5W-20, DON'T use it.
If your car WAS designed for 5W-20, then you may use it.
It's the metallurgy that matters, not the clearances.
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On 10/23/2007 1:27 PM highkm spake these words of knowledge:

2003 Accord LX v4, 134,000 miles, Mobil-1 5-20, changed every 10,000 miles. Haven't noted any engine problems with power, mileage, problem codes or noises.
RFT!!! Dave Kelsen
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On 10/23/2007 8:48 PM Dave Kelsen spake these words of knowledge:

I inadvertently lied. My Accord only has 111,000 miles. It's my Odyssey (2001 EX) that has 134,000. Both use the same oil, and are changed at the same interval though.
RFT!!! Dave Kelsen
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It really bothers me when people cut me o...

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I talked to at least a dozen oil experts, some who have Ferrary vehicles for a long time and don't follow factory suggestions. Most have convinced me that 0w30 synthetic is the best motor oil for my application. The best advice I got was from a man who owns a late 80s non-diesel mercedes with almost 1 million kilometers without any repairs. His suggestion is to not rev the engine beyond 4000RPM any more. Try to accelerate as slowly as possible without interfeering with the traffic behind. Use high quality 0w30 or 5w30 synthetic. Change it at 10,000 mile (16,000Km) intervals including the oil filter. Before filling with fresh synthetic oil, clean the engine with cheapest fresh oil (doesn't need to be synthetic) for approximately 15 minutes or longer if in winter. NEVER use petroleum based engine flushes. Flush the transmission on every change interval that I follow (for me it's every 50,000KM) i.e. drain, fill, drive 3 times. Make sure the tires are always properly inflated i.e. check every week. The idea of the latter suggestions is to reduce the load on the engine as much as possible. Lastly, take a sample of the oil during the drain and send to lab for analysis. He did this every 50,000km. I've never done it, but I will do this at my next oil change. I am kind of curious as to what the report will show. Some people I talked were truckers. Alot of them use Amsoil. Some are obsessed with oil. They have onboard oil centrifuge-like gadgets that act as oil refineries that allow for driving up to 100,000Km before replacing the oil.
Thank you all for your suggestions.
Dan
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highkm wrote:

eh? what a bunch of underinformed crap.
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The engines in Europe have the same clearances as the US engines and they don't require 5W20 oil. Your mechanic was BSing you. I had the same sort of experience with Ford. I complained about a start-up noise and the first question was "Are you using 5W20 Oil?" I was, so they couldn't use that as an excuse. A friend had a Ford that smoked slightly at start-up (probably leaky valve seal). The dealer told him to switch to 15W40! It didn't cause any problems, but it didn't fix anything either.
Using 5W30 oil instead of 5W20 oil can't be a problem. Either oil is thicker at a cold start-up than at operating temperature. If the oil passages and clearances are so critical that the difference between 5W20 and 5W30 is significant for a warmed up engine, there will be major lubrication issues during cold starts.
I'd say the wear you described was not unusual for an engine with 340,000 km, particularly if you have been using second rate oil and not changing it at the recommended intervals. I think it is not necessary to change to 5W20 oil. If the rest of your engine is worn, the bearing clearances are likely greater than when new, and the 5W20 oil will leak out of the bearings faster, negating any advantages you think you might get because the 5W20 flows easier.
Ed
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Nonsense. That same engine family is sold in other parts of the world with much thicker oil specified. Somehow I also don't think that the Acura TSX high output version of the Accord 4 cylinder is built to "looser tolerances" than the Honda version, yet the Acura calls for 5W-30.
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