Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)

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Jim Yanik wrote:


Those SUVs don't maneuver very well and when they try, they tend to roll over.
Shortly after I put the '83 Civic FE on the road, I encountered a situation that it easily dealt with but a full sized car/truck could have had an unfortunate conclusion.
Accident avoidance sure has its advantages.

Uh, I said earlier that only in situations of equal circumstances. If it's gonna happen, give me more iron for protection. (The '55 has shoulder belts).

A circumstance that few want to admit to.
AFAIC, the guv'ment should get out of the business of tightly regulating mileage/safety standards to the point of micromanaging. If I were to buy a new vehicle where choice was available, it would only have seat belts period. Cost to benefit ratio just doesn't work (for me) otherwise.
I'm by nature a defensive driver. While others are chatting, texting, eating and are otherwise pre-occupied, I'm looking down the road a quarter of a mile anticipating potential disaster.

Yes, this country needs an energy program to largely replace fossil fuels not because of "sky is falling" climate change hysteria, but because of economic reasons to end the economic blacmail being imposed on us by every two bit dictatorship internationally.
Of course, if the world had two or three billion less in the way of population, most of today's problems wouldn't exist...
JT
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The idea is to drive so it doesn't happen.(high energy impacts.)

I agree. I want a car that weighs around 2500 lbs.,no more than 2.5 L,and has ~250 HP. B-) Actually,I want a 2001 Prelude with a turbo motor. ;-)

that's my style,too. Look ahead,think ahead,plan ahead.

We're not going to replace fossil fuels for autos;the alternatives simply don't have the same energy density of petro fuels.We need to open up our DOMESTIC oil production and refining,screw the environuts.
For fixed electric power generation,nuclear is the way to go;Best energy density of all,reliable,clean. I note solar proponents are not mentioning that solar panels only have a 30 yr life before they degrade,and also need WATER to keep them clean.

IMO,it's not the population,but their leaders that are the problem. Too many are kleptocracies,tyrannies,etc that do little or nothing to improve their citizens lives.
Zimbabwe is a fine example;as Rhodesia,it was the breadbasket of Africa,now they must import food. Farms that were productive are now underproducing,if producing at all. Extreme inflation rate,much suffering. But they have great natural resources.
Watch Martin Yan's food show on PBS,and see how many Chinese actually live;very primitive conditions.
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Maxing out domestic oil wouldn't even keep up with demand if it increased at the pace of the last few decades. And it is a finite resource - the faster we use it, the sooner it runs out.
The economics of a pure electric vehicle pretty much limits it to the golf-cart city cars for the foreseeable future. No one I know is going to pay the cost for a highway capable electric car with a range of 100 miles between charges. (Although I did see a Tesla on the expressway the other day.) Hybrids are practical now and will only become more so as the price of oil increases.

Nuclear reactors only have a 30-50 year life and they are a lot bigger problem to dispose of. They also require water to cool them.
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I'll disagree with this. While I am no huge fan of Chevy these days, the Volt has a very good chance of being successful.
40 Miles per charge on pure electric, and a small motor to charge the battery and extend the range to ~ 300 miles. The 40 miles is more than enough for most people. Of course, we'll have to see how it actually performs once released, but it's a nice looking car, and the pricetag will be affordable.
Tesla is working on releasing the model S, a 4-door that does a 45 minute charge for a 300 mile trip. The price is 50 Grand after the Federal tax credit, and the car is good looking, fast and efficient.

So what? Water is fine. And nuclear waste is much smaller than it used to be (ie: efficiency is growing). The disposal of said waste CAN be done in a clean, efficient manner. It is cleaner than the exhaust that is thrown up by coal plants...
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That wasn't me, but I'll disagree. New discoveries or not, Oil is not being produced. Or, if it is, not nearly at the rate we are using it.

Most people CAN. Most people do not use SUV's for towing anyhow. And you don't need to have one thing that works for everyone. You can still have trucks run on gas, or whatever, while you also have daily commuters running full electric, hybrid, or whatever.

110V Outlets are everywhere. Believe it or not, I even have a few in my house. Heck, I even have a couple 220V's.

Absolutely!
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wrote:

Only because the Dems block domestic production and refinery expansion. Look how the price of oil shot up so high and then drastically dropped. (IMO,-somebody- was manipulating the market,for political reasons.)

Most people don't buy one vehicle for city use and another for interstate driving. Their one car has to do both. and many people cannot afford to buy a new car,hybrid or whatever.

yeah,like some OTHER property owner is going to foot the bills for charging lots of other peoples vehicles.We don't even have the extra electric capacity to power millions of new electric vehicles.

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That's got nothing to do with what you originally said. You said oil is not a "finite" resource. It is. Even if you opened up drilling in the US, ANWAR and off shore, you'd still only buy yourself 10 years or so. That's good. 10 Years is lots of time to develop a new source, but if we are going well, you know the new source will NOT happen. We never seem to innovate until necessity rears it's ugly head...
As far as WHY the oil prices went up, it's a complex issue. First, there were several fields shut down, restricting supply. Second, futures traders were betting heavily on more supply problems, causing demand to shoot up (they basically bought the oil and held it back). Third, the Oil companies were willing accomplices. They want to know just how high the price has to go before we start griping. They have their answer, and now prices will slowly rise back into the $3 range.

Most families have more than one car in the US. Most people never travel more than 40 miles form home. There's an interesting statistic that's always used by "safety" nuts: Most accidents happen within 25 miles of home. Well, duh. Most people in the US do 99% of their driving within that range. If they are going to have an accident, it's going to be in that range.

Metering electrical outlets is a trivial process. It would cost truck stops and rest stops about $100/outlet to add a metering system. It could probably be a fully automated system (with credit card swipe, etc) for under $250. It takes about 45 minutes to fully charge a Tesla. You pull in to a service center, plug in the car, swipe your card, then go sit and eat. When it's done charging, the meter stop, you get your receipt and unplug the car. Off you go.
And the draw for the charge is trivial. About 8 Amps. Using a standard business service (around 200 Amps) a restaurant could easily charge up 20 cars at a time.
Would this require more power generation? Of course. But isn't that the other thing we are discussing?
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wrote:

and can't afford to replace any of them. Often the 2nd car is a beater.

"NEVER"?? hyperbole.

and where does this data come from? How long does it take for the owner to recoup their investment?
I note that it's all "it would" and "probably".....kinda like the "if only there were no guns" nonsense the anti-gunners spout constantly.

Using a 220V high power outlet.

Heh,there aren't any around,just like hydrogen refueling stations.

8 amps at 220V for 45 minutes is not a lot of charge. I suspect it's not anywhere near a full charge for your Tesla.

except that Oblama and the DemocRATs are moving us AWAY from that surplus of power generation.While making the cost of petrol higher,and needing to be imported from questionable foreign sources.
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No one is looking to have this done by tomorrow, or next year. It is a process that will take years. Notice how many cars are left on the road that require leaded gasoline?

Not hyperbole, simple fact. The statistics are readily available. The average mileage in the US is somewhere around 14,000 miles per year. That equates to an average of about 38 miles per day. Most people use their car to commute to and from work, perhaps pick up the kids from soccer practice, and run to the local grocer. These people that you assume cannot buy a new car, or a second car, are not driving hundreds of miles per day or going on constant vacations...

What data? The cost to buy an electrical meter? The cost for a credit card machine? Or do you mean the cost for this combination machine that doesn't exist yet, but will quickly materialize once there is a need for it? The technology is already there, and rather affordable, some smart company will just have to package it.

Not long at all. Weeks or months. AAMOF, even if the device cost $1000 each, it would only need to have a couple dozen cars use it for a charge before it has paid for itself.

Ahhh. So what you are saying is that you have no imagination, and America is incapable of developing simple technologies?

220V is not "high power". 220V is available everywhere in the country, and the power from it does not cost any more than from a 110 Line..

You have one right at your house, much unlike Hydrogen.

You'd be suspecting wrong...

When talking about things that don't exist yet, the people that effect real change are not those that try to come up with reasons why it won't work...
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"never" is an absolute,and inaccurate,to say the least.

you crack me up with your baseless assumptions.

you're extremely naive.

Now I KNOW you're full of crap; "couple of dozen cars use it before it's paid for itself"

That's all you have is "imagination",nothing else.

By "high power",I mean capable of sourcing high current.

But NOWHERE else. There's no "electric stations" or "recharging stations" existing for people to recharge electrics other than at home. and people DO use their cars more than 40 miles from home,despite your incorrect assumptions.

8A x 220V= 1760 watts,for only 3/4 of an hour,= 1320 watt-hours. That's a mighty weak battery pack,or one HELL of an efficient electric motor.

I never said it "won't work",just that it's not practical,that the necessary infrastructure is -not in place-,and it would take a long time for that to occur. Without the infrastructure,few people are going to commit to an electric auto. Until there's a sufficient market for "recharging stations",there will be few businesses willing to pay to install them. and fewer will be willing to supply free electric in the meantime.
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BTW,many power utilities charge MORE (a higher KWH rate)for KWH over some baseline amount. (Mine is 1000 KWH/month.)

I checked Tesla's website,and THEY say it takes 3.5 hrs for a full charge...using their special Tesla High Power Connector,supplying 70A at 240VAC. The battery pack is a 53 KWH pack.
so,your claim of 45 minutes charge time and 8A source is BULL. It's clear you don't know what you're talking about.

20 cars x 70A= 1400A!
that's a substantial investment for equipment,and a lot of extra power required.
AND,other brands of car may not use the same high power connector,so there would have to be more equipment expense or some standard adapted,and that's gonna take time.
This is what's called "considering the realities"....
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You mean by 20v to 30v lower than E.U. Which is between 220v and 250v depending on country?
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Rather than guessing we could check information on the intenet:
Model S will have a range of 160 miles (260 km), 230 miles (370 km) or 300 miles (480 km) when fully charged, depending on the chosen battery option, and feature a 45 minute QuickCharge when connected to a 480V outlet. In addition, a battery swap will be possible in less than five minutes. [4]
42 kWh battery storage system standard 70 kWh and greater battery storage systems optional
They say a full charge costs "as little as $4" whatever that means. Would be nice if they told us how many kWh for a full charge.
The battery swap is an interesting proposal, especially if you could trade up or down in storage capacity. However, you have to whether the infrastructure for on-the-road quick charging or battery swaps will ever be installed during the life of your 2012 model.
If you assume that gas costs $4, and a Prius gets 40 mpg, it will cost you ten cents a mile to fuel it. As little as $4 sounds like at least $6 to go 160 miles in your S. That is four cents a mile or a savings of 6 cents over the Prius. Driven 12,000 miles per year, that is $720 in fuel savings. That won't even come close to paying the interest on the extra $25K cost of the S. Of course the S would be a lot more fun to own, but most people cant afford $25K for fun. If they could, BMW would be selling a lot more cars.
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I would guess a 110V system like that would cost no more than a couple thousand. The problem is that it would take hours (essentially overnight) to fully recharge an electric car on 110v.

I'm not sure what you mean by high power, but it certainly wouldn't be a simple electric range outlet.
I also wonder how many times you can do that 45 minute charge before the batteries are toast.
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On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 23:01:28 -0500, Joe

I don't think that is true. It is probably true that 80-90% of driving is done in that range.

The only context I have ever heard the safety "nuts" make that claim is in regards to why you should always wear your seatbelt (i.e. not just on long trips.) Do you really think that is "nuts"? Sounds like pretty sound advice to me. Is the statistic somehow misleading? Possibly in some ways, but not really. Anyone with half a brain can figure out why the statistic is true, but it doesn't make the advice any less valid.

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On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:26:49 -0500, Joe

I am judiciously skeptical of the Volt, but I suspect there will be a number of vehicles with similar performance in 2 - 4 years. But these vehicles are hybrids. Not that there is anything wrong with hybrids - I would certainly consider one if I was in the market. However, a pure electric vehicle is a lot shakier proposition from a marketplace standpoint.
I would not be in a hurry to buy either a volt-like hybrid or a pure electric because I am concerned that the batteries will be stressed much more severely than current hybrids.

The price is $50K for the 160 mile model and it isn't clear whether 45 minute charging will be on that model. The range would be OK if it didn't cost $50. That price insures that this will fill only a tiny niche. The market isn't that big for $50K cars and most buyers will not want to make the compromises. And if you think the long term plans at GM are suspect, you have to think that long term Tesla anything is like a lottery ticket.

The previous poster cited the need to wash solar panels with "WATER" as a serious flaw. I am actually pretty ambivalent regarding nuclear energy. I don't think it is as bad as the vocal opponents but I also don't think that it is as benign as its vocal supporters claim. Hopefully, they will never kill as many people as coal fired plants have.
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A Volt is a 100% plug-in electric car. It is not a hybrid. Chevy included the small engine as an afterthought, and it does not drive the car, it only charges the battery. For standard commuting of under 40 miles per day, the engine never even gets turned on.

The batteries operate better under such stress. Lithium Ion batteries are ideal for electric vehicles.

Tesla isn't going to be some big success. I don't even think they expect to be. They are a vehicle for change. They are developing high-end technology. After a few years, that technology then filters down to the rest of the market. That's how innovation works.

Nuclear energy is completely benign, so long as it is treated with respect. Using France's model (never thought I'd say such a thing), Nuclear reactors are safer and cleaner than coal or oil plants.
And Solar panels will not replace the grid, nor will they eliminate a person's need for external supply of electricity. But, if each household had a 1500 Watt Panel or two, the stress on the grid would be reduced by orders of magnatude. There is likely not one single answer to our energy problems. The answer will come from a variety of technologies that will work together to clean up the mess.
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Coal from start to finish has killed FAR more people than Western nuclear power generation for the same time frame. and done FAR more harm to the environment.

A "1500 watt panel or two" ? "by orders of magnitude"?? hyperbole.
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Are you smoking crack or are you simply obtuse?
A 1500 Watt panel isn't all that expensive. And yes, if even half of the homes in the US had one panel, it would be a significant reduction in the draw on the grid.
You do seem to love the word hyperbole, though...
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because you're FULL of it. Do you think a 1500 watt panel puts out 1500 watts all the time the sun hits it? Or that it's output doesn't decrease the dirtier it gets? How often do you think a homeowner is willing to clean it?
dust,pollen,tree sap,etc. THINK about it.
It seems YOU are the one smoking crack...and dreaming.
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