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Im afraid so...that the salesmen dont necessarily have the real info on the products.
People are so worried about suits, proprietary information, etc, AND justifiably so.
Nowadays, with the instrumentation we have, it is impossible to hide a secret about chemical formulations. What is harder is to learn the process one might use to make those chemicals.
Would you believe that the process to make ethylene oxide, the precursor to ethylene glycol antifreezes, only yields 1-2% product on each pass through the plant? It is true. BUT, in an enormous plant, 1-2% can yield millions of pounds of product per year.
I have been in this business for 45 years, and am still learning. When I graduated from the university, I thought I knew every chemical reaction known to man. My first boss, a lady, told me that " now it is time for you to learn some chemistry". She was right, and I have been at it ever since.
Thanks for your post.
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wrote in message

When it comes to hearing aids, this is bullshit. Sorry.
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On 06/18/2010 08:01 PM, Tegger wrote:

did someone piss in your cornflakes? and what happened to reading in context?
a lot of d.s.p. [digital signal processing] /is/ closed and proprietary. i doubt you or any sales dude know or even /want/ to know what algorithm[s] are used, or how the processing works.. they know its features and benefits - that's what they need to know and what they're talking to. but that's not the same thing, so don't get them confused
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As a wearer of various brands of hearing aids since the age of six, and the current wearer of two Widex AK-19s, I can tell you that you are completely full of shit. Or worse.
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No, I fear the hearing aid companies are the ones full of shit. These days, they are all putting little dsp processors inside, which all do some amount of noise reduction (mostly gating individual frequency bands). The noise reduction stuff for the most part doesn't do much good in high noise environments where it is most needed, and the manufacturers for the most part won't talk about how the systems work so the people who are prescribing and installing them don't really know the details of what happens inside the black box.
It's sort of... well, actually it's just like ECUs.... except that the hearing aid folks keep up a long line of marketing garbage which obscures the details. --scott
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snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in

Yes it does. And very, very well. I have 42-years of personal experience with hearing aids.
Whatever it is that limits the sounds works excellently against anything from large-caliber gunshots to jet aircraft.
My current hearing-aid model also has a pretty amazing setting that recognizes road noise. It senses, then reduces, that road noise so that it's /much/ easier to converse with passengers. No other hearing-aid I've had has been able to do that.
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That's not noise reduction, that's limiting. And the limiting does indeed work excellently, unless you happen to suffer from severe recruitment in which case the degree of dynamic range squish required can sometimes just be too much.
The noise reduction system is what would allow you to understand someone's voice when that jet aircraft is going over, as well as someone with normal hearing. The limiter just protects you from pain and ear damage, it does not improve intelligibility.

Is is the Etymotic? If so, I am glad to hear it works for you; I am told that is some kind of gated band system that has been optimized for road noise; it specifically cuts out everything but the vocal region which it divides up into narrow bands, and if the instantaneous level in any band is greater than the average level, it silences the band. It does some other stuff that Etymotic won't talk about also and I suspect it has to do with having levels in-between silence and full gain in a band.
For a really weird experience, listen to a fiddle with that setting. I'm not sure quite what's going on but the intonation is screwed up.
How well this kind of thing works depends a lot on the kind of hearing problem you have; if it's just a threshold issue they can be very good, but if you have linearity issues they can sometimes make things worse. A lot of it depends on the skill of the person setting the dsp up and how well they can get an idea of what you're really hearing. --scott
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On 6/19/2010 4:08 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

The hearing aid manufacturers have their marketing arm like most companies which tend to overstate their product's features. Mostly, they pretty much sound alike to me.
At the moment, there's a new product out that does filter out noise using speech envelope detection. It gives about a 6 dB reduction which is kinda small or kinda large depending on your viewpoint. The crazy thing is that it really does seem to work. Anyway, my guess is that the next big thing in hearing aids will be direct connectivity with other devices like cell phones and TVs and noise reduction algorithms that really work.
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On 6/18/2010 4:58 PM, Tegger wrote:

OK Mr. Smarty Pants, please explain what the function of the Dynamic Integrator on your hearing aids is and how it works. Don't give me any of that market-speak BS - that don't tell me nothing.
What is the AIKIA Locator and how does it work? These should be easy for a long time user like you - right?
If you work for Widex, you'd probably get into trouble for disclosing any real information on how Widex programs it's aids. My guess is that the guys that do the R & D probably consider these terms marketing BS. No matter, I'm OK with marketing as long as you are. All happy now? :-)
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Why would I care HOW the thing works as long as somebody can tell me WHAT it does?
Do you know the exact mechanism by which acetaminophen works? Of course not. You only know it works wonders on fevers. Which is all that counts.

Then don't try to snow me with technical gibberish that is meaningless to me, just to show off some supposed brilliance on your part.

Oh, so that's what "AIKIA" is. It's printed on both sides of my aids, and I was wondering about that (but only idly, not enough to want to look it up).
I have not got the foggiest notion. And that doesn't matter. All I need to know is WHAT it does and HOW WELL it does it. Technically HOW it does it is none of my business, and it would be over my head anyway. My provider explained the functions of the various settings to me, and I am satisfied that she has sufficient grasp of the workings of the various aids out there so as to be able to set me up with a good choice for my hearing loss.
You people have completely confused "function" with "proprietary information". The two are unrelated.

Last aid was a Phonak. These are the first Widex's I've ever owned.
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On 6/21/2010 4:32 PM, Tegger wrote:

Well Mr. Hearing Aid Expert, these are advertised features of your aids but it looks like you have no idea WHAT it does or that they even exist. No matter, these are not electronic or audiological terms but marketing terms and therefore not very illuminating or useful. The person that programmed the aids won't be able to explain how or exactly what it does because the manufactures don't give out that information. Please let me know if I've said anything that isn't true.

I'm not interested in impressing you. It's kind of obvious that you're the kind of guy that shoots off his mouth without understanding what is being said. Guys like you are a dime a dozen on Usenet. That's the breaks.

It is good that your provider is competent in this area. My opinion is that a large percentage of providers are not and I wish there were more like her.

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Your penultimate sentence as quoted above. Not only is it untrue, it is very silly.
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On 06/22/2010 03:26 PM, Tegger wrote:

you brought this on yourself dude. it started with this exchange:
dsi1 said: > > Hearing aid companies have all kinds of schemes to reduce noise and > > increase comprehension of their products. The dirty little secret is > > that the people selling hearing aids don't know what their products > > are really doing because all that info is proprietary and closely > > guarded.
and you responded:
> As a wearer of various brands of hearing aids since the age of six, and the > current wearer of two Widex AK-19s, I can tell you that you are completely > full of shit. Or worse.
when called on that, you said:
> Why would I care HOW the thing works as long as somebody can tell me > WHAT it does?
that's inconsistent. at best.
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Or, 1) buying a car from a reputable and successful automaker that is not currently owned by a union or a government, and 2) following that automaker's maintenance and repair instructions, on the premise that they're probably pretty good at what they do, otherwise you wouldn't have spent good money on their product.
Personally, I find that 1 & 2 work fairly well when one is not in a position to be able to discern whether or not any given chemist (or chemist-wannabe) is talking rot or not.
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Is there such a thing? --scott
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snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in wrote:

Honda and Toyota, for two...
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Dunno about Honda, but check out Japanese government investment in Toyota. Also MITI ties to both.... the Japanese have figured out how to do it right at least. --scott
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snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in wrote:

I can't find anything much outside of Toyota getting a $2 billion loan. That is not "investment". Compare that with the explicit ownership of GM by the US and the unions.
As for "MITI ties", those ties have often been detrimental. Soichiro Honda openly and controversially defied MITI's directives when he decided to start building cars. Had he complied, I wouldn't be drivig an Integra right now.
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On 06/19/10 11:30, Tegger wrote:

There's a downside here?
:)
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On 06/18/2010 07:34 PM, Tegger wrote:

ok, so...

given the above, what do /you/ know that allows you to disregard the manufacturer's dipstick calibration and checking specs, or even the manufacturer's oil change interval specs?
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