Coolant Vanishing: '95 Civic EX 1.6 - Attn Tegger and Techs

Hi, First I'd replace the rad. cap and see.

Good idea. I didn't realize that pressure leaks were such a common problem. I may have the system pressure-tested if replacing the cap doesn't work. Thanks.

I took the car to a local shop today. They do free pressure tests (I gave them $20 anyway). No leaks, including the cap. Unless I'm missing something, it has to be the #@!@# head gasket, right? Assuming it's going straight to the exhaust and not burning much, how safe is it to leave it alone? Any suggestions?

go for at least a 20 minute run, then look at the coolant reservoir while the engine's still running. [make sure you can see in, but don't lift the hose above the coolant surface!!!] any bubbles? if so, it's gasket. also, check under the car and look at the bottom of the timing belt cover. any coolant? if so, it's the pump.

low odds but this happened to me

i used some type of radiator additive that was supposed to kep things cooler instead it made my honda go through radiator fluid and make me think that i had a blown head gasket. I would try to flush the system first and start fresh. Next feel the upper rediator hose with your hand after warm up. Do you feel fluid and is the hose good. Low odds but upper radiator hoses can collapse internally and are soo tough to diagnose. Possible that the thermostat is sticking if no fluid passing you have a problem. Next burp the system get excess air out by adding water and squeeze the upper hose till bubles come out of the radiator top fill hole repeat over and over till no more bubbles.

if still no progress either radiator shot, head gasket, water pump

start low cost and confirm all low cost items are good

Here's the problem: I have an appointment *tomorrow* to drop the car off to have the timing belt and water pump replaced, to take advantage of a 2 week service sale. They will be replacing the coolant, but I have to decide if I'm having them do the head gasket then, obviously. BTW, the engine has always run perectly cool, even in very hot weather, so I'm inclined to think the flow is ok...

"mjc13" wrote in news:_8Iuj.4853$0%3.3542@trnddc06:

The pressure test needs to be performed in two places.

the first is done in conjuction with the introduction of UV dye to the coolant, this being detected on the outside with a black light. The second consists of shop air being blown into each combustion chamber, then the rad filler neck being then inspected for bubbles.

There is a third test that uses special paper test strips dipped into the rad filler neck. These change color in the presence of combustion gases in the coolant.

Your problem is NOT the rad cap. If it were, the reservoir would be FULL.

There is also the possibility of a worn water pump. In that case the coolant would drip down the block under the timing belt cover and may not be obvious. Findinig that leak means carefully inspecting the crank pulley area.

Do not put this off. You WILL damage your engine, possibly badly. You're supposed to check your coolant level every time you open the hood, or at least once a week.

The procedure in the Honda manual online in the UK is to just use a hand pump-operated pressurizer with guage, and see if the pressure drops in the cooling system or cap. I don't know which they used at the shop...

Good point.

What I'm going to do, assuming I can even afford the cost of a new gasket done by the dealer, is to tell them to look for leaks, especially at the water pump. If they find none, I'll have them replace the head gasket. Shouldn't they install the new timing belt and water pump for no extra labor charge (they will be providing the parts, not me) when they do the gasket? I'm also having the front oil seals replaced as a preventive measure. Thanks for your response. If you could answer this post before this evening, when I drop it off, I'd appreciate it greatly.

Seems like you're jumping the gun a little bit here. How low was it in the reservoir? When you say reservoir do you just mean the overflow tank, or the radiator?

In normal use, the system will settle out to where the overflow tank sits at the "min" mark when the engine has cooled & the level will rise to around the "max" mark when the engine is hot & has been running for a while.

I certainly would not spend money replacing a head gasket that has not even been diagnosed. There is not enough info here to even say for sure that there is a problem.

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Where did you get this bit of misinformation? I've owned six Hondas and the level in the reservoir never changes more than about 1", hot or cold, summer or winter.

If yours changes that much, there's something radically wrong from what the Honda engineers designed.

'Curly'

I get my bit of "misinformation" from the behavior of 27 different cars over a period 38 years. Where do you get yours?

"E Meyer" wrote

On my 91 Civic, after years of observation, I'd say it's at more like the mid mark on the reservoir when cool, then right at max when warm. I am just following the manual: If reservoir level is at low or a bit above, then warm up the engine, and add coolant to the max mark.

I know. On the one hand it may be nothing. On the other it could be engine-threatening. The dealer told us in essesnce, that we can't afford a new gasket - didn't even quote a price. And we wonder why cars aren't maintained like they used to be...

The reservoir was empty, or virtually so, both times.

then you either have a leak [which should be obvious somewhere - you need to inspect properly] or you have a blown gasket. pressure tests don't necessarily work for diagnosing gaskets unless the vehicle is at full operating temperature. and even then... observing bubbles in the coolant is the only sure-fire way of knowing.

bottom line, it's pointless spending money on the belt until you have a correct diagnosis.

also, for repair economics, given the money that some repair shops charge for head gasket work, it may be more economic to replace the whole engine. you can buy a jdm import for a few hundred bucks and replacement time is way lower than the time necessary to strip, clean, prep and reassemble a motor for a gasket. and there's the problem of repair shops using abrasives in preparation witch will in due course, cause the car to burn oil. and there's the problem of many places insisting on skimming your head, even if it doesn't need it.

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Sorry, misinformation is a strong word.

Volvos and Dodge products that I owned had pressurized reservoirs. The coolant level in them went up and down with temperature, but the HONDA isn't supposed to, since it's reservoir isn't under pressure at all. Boiling hot coolant isn't supposed to take up much more room than cold coolant, as long as the rad cap is keeping the pressure up.

Since about '92 most Hondas will self-bleed any trapped air because the rad cap is the highest point in the system. When any trapped air is forced out, the air is supposed to bubble through the reservoir and when the system next cools, the level in the reservoir drops as coolant it drawn back in. That's when the owner is supposed to add coolant up to the MAX mark on bottle. The owner's manuals and the Helms service manual all tell the same story.

However, none of this theory applies if there's a hole in a hose, the head, the heater core, the water pump seal, or if the rad cap is shot.

'Curly'

sorry, that's fundamentally incorrect. coolant liquid most definitely expands as it heats - for both systems. pressure doesn't stop coolant expanding, it simply raises the boiling point.

jim beam wrote in news:KMSdnV0zeONlMCHanZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@speakeasy.net:

I think we all agree that this motor should not be losing so much coolant so quickly. IMO,a coolant DYE test is in order. see if and where there's a coolant leak.

"mjc13" wrote in news:j50vj.11208$wG2.3708@trndny09:

then you need to go to a different service supplier.(but still use OEM Honda parts) It seems obvious this dealer just doesn't want to work on your car.

It's a FACT you're losing coolant fast;you need to find out WHERE. A dye test seems in order.

THEN worry about head gaskets,IF necessary.

but most antifreeze already has dye in it already. and dye does nothing to diagnose a head gasket.

as said by someone else, the o.p. needs to take this vehicle to a shop that /wants/ to fix it - clearly the current one doesn't. time to hit the phones.