: Before you say you cant afford a hybrid, lets take a look at the web site,
: base Prius $21,100, base Corolla auto (apples to apples) $17,110, difference
ONE, the difference between your own numbers is $4000.
TWO, I am not sure if "apples to apples" is as fair a comparison as you
make it sound. Corolla is available in cheaper versions, Prius is not.
A manual CE would not only cost less but also have better mpg.
Maybe on some vehicles. I know a lot of high-mileage Corollas (>200K)
and it's certainly not normal to need a new transmission, at least no
one I know of with a high-mileage Corolla (or Camry, or Accord, or
Civic) has ever needed one.
Where did you get the idea that it was "normal?".
Oops that was a math error, so that drops your savings down to $4,000 in 10
years. Show me the data indicating battery packs fail in great numbers, at
least as much as transmission and engine problems as hybrid cars have been
on the road more than 10 years and some have over 300,000 miles on them.
The other issue, is why would you want a low end car with a manual
transmission, I would not even consider one. It would also have poor resale
value? though not a major factor, but, unless you are going to drive the car
into the ground, it has some bering.
If you are comparing a car with an automatic trans, yes, you need to add
the auto to the other....BTW. I did use the base Corolla for the comparison
but comparing a stripped econo-box to a fairly well equipped car is the same
logic people use when comparing the Honda hybrid to the Civic DX, sorry,
like it or not, the hybrid is on par with the EX not the DX so, though you
may be happy with a low end car, Hybrids are not and therefore the
difference it owed to more than the cost of the hybrid system but the Hybrid
may not be for you.
: The other issue, is why would you want a low end car with a manual
I was just pointing out that it is an option. If someone is comfortable
with manual transmission (as OP stated) and wants to save money while
still getting Corolla quality, he can.
I have owned manual and automatic Toyotas and never had problem selling
As CVT's gain ground, the benefits of a manual transmission (in terms of
fuel economy) fade. Most CVT's are either equaling or exceeding the mpg
rating of manuals. I'm not ready to trust CVT's yet, and prefer to see them
proven over time, but they do show promise.
I was not aware that they were in common production for those cars. Are you
quite certain? Most of the Civics I'm aware of had automatics or standards.
In any event, not all manufacturers have a lot of experience with them. If
you want to jump on board with a manufacturer's early ventures into a
technology, be my guest. Experience has shown that to be less than
The newer automatics are so efficient that they often get higher mileage
than a manual transmission in the same car. No one that drive
extensively in heavy stop and go traffic is going to put up with a
Most of the reason a manual Toyota Corolla still gets better
mpg than an automatic Toyota Corolla is that the manual has
a 5-speed tranny while the auto has a 4-speed one.
For other makes and models, and in the last five years or
so, changes in auto tranny design have resulted in it often
surpassing manual trannies when it comes to mpg, when
comparing the same models whose only difference is the
www.fueleconomy.gov , among other sites, indicates the 2008
Corolla is available with either a manual 5-speed (five
forward gears) tranny or an automatic, 4-speed (four forward
gears) tranny. Generally for diverse driving (e.g. some kind
of cross between city and highway driving), the more gears,
the better the odds the engine has of running at optimal
Though I probably should have qualified this somewhat. For
one, with other makes, there are some automatic four-speed
trannies with variable yada that can do as well as or better
than manual five-speeds.
The bigger point to me is that it's worth checking the MPG
for both the auto and manual versions of a particular model
and year before just assuming the manual tranny will do
better than the auto.
Lastly, as others are saying and MPG aside, I think manual
transmissions tend to be cheaper to maintain and are less
prone to breakdown.
Actually, an automatic transmission can easily go 200K miles with no
repairs or maintenance other than perhaps one change of fluid. 200K
miles of city driving on a manual will require at least one clutch
change. For highway driving, you could go longer on a clutch.
Actually, you're speaking in possibilities and outliers. I
am talking about averages. I can say that, anecdotally,
reports of serious problems with auto transmissions are much
more common in this newsgroup than reports of serious
problems with manual trannies. Fact is the engineering of an
auto tranny is far more complicated than that of a manual.
This of course translates to a greater propensity for
I would not generalize like this. Clutch wear depends on
shifting style as well as stops and starts. I do not do all
city driving but it's been almost all suburban driving, with
some city and highway. My 91 Civic is on 204k miles on its
LOL, it actually was Elmo one talking about outliers, claiming that 125K
miles to be the norm for an automatic transmission. Maybe it's the norm
for Ford or Chevy (actually I don't believe that either), but definitely
for Toyota and Honda.
A Canadian study on longevity (11-20 year old cars) showed the following
as the five non-luxury vehicle brands with the highest percentage of
vehicles (based on number originally sold):
Of course you don't know how much was spent to keep these going that
long, how much oil the engines consumed, or how much was spent on
repairs in years 1-10, but there's no reason to believe that these
owners were willing to spend more on repairs than owners of more poorly
For reference here are my facts:
My '95 Concorde now has 140k kms on it.
The engine runs perfectly, gets the original fuel mileage, goes 8k on a
liter of oil and the auto shifts as new.
The only repairs on the engine were a set of plugs at 95k, and
replacement of the rubber parts on the engine external , associated with
the fuel and PVC system, in '06.
Engine service is oil changes at 5 to 8 k, always twice per year, plus a
few air filters.
The only transmission service has been oil changes every 50k plus a
flush at 120k.
A friend of mine has a '94 of the same car going strong at 210k.
I've read the design was for 200k miles (300k kms)
This is not unusual, but typical of this engine transmission.
Transmission failures from '94 on are usually due to lack of adequate
Oh I should mention that although I often drive on severe winter roads
to the ski hills, the body is rust free and stil shines lovely. The body
has had no special treatment, just washed with Turtle wash and wax.
Actually, this mileage is related to less transmission slippage, not
I have seen some automatics that were close in mileage, but I would like
for you to point out one that surpasses the manual.
Warning: keyboard may cause involuntary vowel movement - Clay Ferriola
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