Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds

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: Before you say you cant afford a hybrid, lets take a look at the web site, : base Prius $21,100, base Corolla auto (apples to apples) $17,110, difference
: $2,715,
ONE, the difference between your own numbers is $4000.
TWO, I am not sure if "apples to apples" is as fair a comparison as you make it sound. Corolla is available in cheaper versions, Prius is not. A manual CE would not only cost less but also have better mpg.
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Newbie wrote:

Hmmm, Cost of battery pack when it needs replacing?
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Is no different than the cost of the traditional automatic transmission when it needs replacing.
And after 125K, a traditional auto trans will need replacing. It seems to be normal nowadays.
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

Maybe on some vehicles. I know a lot of high-mileage Corollas (>200K) and it's certainly not normal to need a new transmission, at least no one I know of with a high-mileage Corolla (or Camry, or Accord, or Civic) has ever needed one.
Where did you get the idea that it was "normal?".
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Oops that was a math error, so that drops your savings down to $4,000 in 10 years. Show me the data indicating battery packs fail in great numbers, at least as much as transmission and engine problems as hybrid cars have been on the road more than 10 years and some have over 300,000 miles on them. The other issue, is why would you want a low end car with a manual transmission, I would not even consider one. It would also have poor resale value? though not a major factor, but, unless you are going to drive the car into the ground, it has some bering. If you are comparing a car with an automatic trans, yes, you need to add the auto to the other....BTW. I did use the base Corolla for the comparison but comparing a stripped econo-box to a fairly well equipped car is the same logic people use when comparing the Honda hybrid to the Civic DX, sorry, like it or not, the hybrid is on par with the EX not the DX so, though you may be happy with a low end car, Hybrids are not and therefore the difference it owed to more than the cost of the hybrid system but the Hybrid may not be for you.
wrote:

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: The other issue, is why would you want a low end car with a manual : transmission..
I was just pointing out that it is an option. If someone is comfortable with manual transmission (as OP stated) and wants to save money while still getting Corolla quality, he can.
I have owned manual and automatic Toyotas and never had problem selling either kind.
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wrote:

And as gas prices climb closer to $4/gal, small efficient manual transmission vehicles will be more desirable. I expect to see a premium on manual trans, small engine cars pretty soon in the US.
Jon
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As CVT's gain ground, the benefits of a manual transmission (in terms of fuel economy) fade. Most CVT's are either equaling or exceeding the mpg rating of manuals. I'm not ready to trust CVT's yet, and prefer to see them proven over time, but they do show promise.
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CVT's have been in common production since 1989, Subaru Justy & Honda Civic HCH how long do they need to be around before you can trust them?

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I was not aware that they were in common production for those cars. Are you quite certain? Most of the Civics I'm aware of had automatics or standards.
In any event, not all manufacturers have a lot of experience with them. If you want to jump on board with a manufacturer's early ventures into a technology, be my guest. Experience has shown that to be less than advisable.
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Zeppo wrote:

The newer automatics are so efficient that they often get higher mileage than a manual transmission in the same car. No one that drive extensively in heavy stop and go traffic is going to put up with a manual transmission.
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Most of the reason a manual Toyota Corolla still gets better mpg than an automatic Toyota Corolla is that the manual has a 5-speed tranny while the auto has a 4-speed one.
For other makes and models, and in the last five years or so, changes in auto tranny design have resulted in it often surpassing manual trannies when it comes to mpg, when comparing the same models whose only difference is the tranny.
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Elle wrote:

I don't think so. Can you explain that?
Clay
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www.fueleconomy.gov , among other sites, indicates the 2008 Corolla is available with either a manual 5-speed (five forward gears) tranny or an automatic, 4-speed (four forward gears) tranny. Generally for diverse driving (e.g. some kind of cross between city and highway driving), the more gears, the better the odds the engine has of running at optimal fuel efficiency.
Though I probably should have qualified this somewhat. For one, with other makes, there are some automatic four-speed trannies with variable yada that can do as well as or better than manual five-speeds.
The bigger point to me is that it's worth checking the MPG for both the auto and manual versions of a particular model and year before just assuming the manual tranny will do better than the auto.
Lastly, as others are saying and MPG aside, I think manual transmissions tend to be cheaper to maintain and are less prone to breakdown.
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Elle wrote:

Actually, an automatic transmission can easily go 200K miles with no repairs or maintenance other than perhaps one change of fluid. 200K miles of city driving on a manual will require at least one clutch change. For highway driving, you could go longer on a clutch.
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Actually, you're speaking in possibilities and outliers. I am talking about averages. I can say that, anecdotally, reports of serious problems with auto transmissions are much more common in this newsgroup than reports of serious problems with manual trannies. Fact is the engineering of an auto tranny is far more complicated than that of a manual. This of course translates to a greater propensity for problems.

I would not generalize like this. Clutch wear depends on shifting style as well as stops and starts. I do not do all city driving but it's been almost all suburban driving, with some city and highway. My 91 Civic is on 204k miles on its original clutch.
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Elle wrote:

LOL, it actually was Elmo one talking about outliers, claiming that 125K miles to be the norm for an automatic transmission. Maybe it's the norm for Ford or Chevy (actually I don't believe that either), but definitely for Toyota and Honda.
A Canadian study on longevity (11-20 year old cars) showed the following as the five non-luxury vehicle brands with the highest percentage of vehicles (based on number originally sold):
Saturn Toyota Honda Mazda Volkswagen
Of course you don't know how much was spent to keep these going that long, how much oil the engines consumed, or how much was spent on repairs in years 1-10, but there's no reason to believe that these owners were willing to spend more on repairs than owners of more poorly ranked vehicles.
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For reference here are my facts: My '95 Concorde now has 140k kms on it. The engine runs perfectly, gets the original fuel mileage, goes 8k on a liter of oil and the auto shifts as new. The only repairs on the engine were a set of plugs at 95k, and replacement of the rubber parts on the engine external , associated with the fuel and PVC system, in '06. Engine service is oil changes at 5 to 8 k, always twice per year, plus a few air filters. The only transmission service has been oil changes every 50k plus a flush at 120k. A friend of mine has a '94 of the same car going strong at 210k. I've read the design was for 200k miles (300k kms)
This is not unusual, but typical of this engine transmission. Transmission failures from '94 on are usually due to lack of adequate service.
Oh I should mention that although I often drive on severe winter roads to the ski hills, the body is rust free and stil shines lovely. The body has had no special treatment, just washed with Turtle wash and wax.
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You're lucky because I have yet to see one that doesn't have any rust in my area.

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Elle wrote:

Actually, this mileage is related to less transmission slippage, not gear selection. I have seen some automatics that were close in mileage, but I would like for you to point out one that surpasses the manual.
Clay
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