Crankshaft oil seal

I will be doing a timing belt change on my 2000 Civic Si in a few months. I've got what I think is a complete parts list for the job (see below), but I'm not 100% sure if I have the right part for the
crankshaft oil seal. I read somewhere that the oil seal under the "OIL PUMP-OIL STRAINER (2)" is the same as the front crankshaft oil seal. Is this right? Here is my part list and the item in question:
14400-P2T-004 BELT (124RU26 D-130) 31110-P2T-004 BELT, ALTERNATOR 56992-P2T-003 BELT, P.S. PUMP 19200-P72-013 WATER PUMP 19301-P08-316 THERMOSTAT ASSY. 91213-PR3-004 OIL SEAL (29X43X8) (camshaft x 2) 91212-PR3-003 OIL SEAL (38X50X7.4) <--- crankshaft oil seal?? 14510-P30-003 TENSIONER 14516-P2T-000 SPRING 12341-PR3-000 GASKET, HEAD COVER
I know there has been discussions before about whether or not to replace to replace the oil seals during timing belt service. I decided to replace mine since it has taken me 7 years to put 65K on the dial. I may not be back in that area of the engine for another 7 years. :)
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The front crank seal is just under the timing belt gear. Its a good idea to replace it since you have to do ALL the disassembly if you have to do it later. I would leave the cam seals out of your list unless they are leaking. They arent a big deal to replace if they do start leaking later.
Happy wrenching!
-SP
Greg wrote:

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Greg wrote:

My recommendation would be to replace all of the oil seals. It's the equivalent of buying an insurance policy for your new timing belt. If oil gets on the new belt, it can weaken it and cause it to fail prematurely. The key is getting the seals installed correctly. The factory seal drivers work great but they're a bit expensive. For an alternative, check out the info in one of my prior posts. http://tinyurl.com/2gjj9n . The washers I bought were called 'machine washers' by the hardware store. They worked pretty good. Whatever you do, just don't tap on the seal directly with a tool in order to drive it into the bore. More often than not, this will wind up damaging the seal. Put the large washer up against the seal, then you can tap on the washer to drive the seal in the last little bit to square it up with the seal bore.
By the way, I would add upper spark plug tube seals to your parts list. These should be part # 12342-PG6-000 and you'll need 4 of them. They tend to get compressed and the rubber hardens up over time. This can cause oil leaks into the spark plug tubes which can then cause running problems.
Eric
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Eric wrote:

this dogma is repeated again and again by people that are just not looking at this situation analytically - there are two factors that are repeatedly overlooked.
1. all oil seals will show a little wet. if they don't, there's no oil in the motor and you have a big problem! the seal lip needs a little wet to run properly. it's not only harmless but essential to operation.
2. unless you strip the motor, it's hard [and unusual] to remove a seal without damaging the seal running surface. if that gets scratched, any new seal is going to have a hard time sealing and won't last.
bottom line - honda seals are very high quality and they will last 300k+ with no attention. the only proviso is that good quality oil is used. some are crap and have no seal conditioners. my 89 civic leaked like a drain when i first got it at 105k. i subsequently used a quality oil and discovered that it had stopped leaking. now it's at 157k and it's completely leak free. don't believe that? my recently acquired crx was the same, and now, two months into decent oil quality, it's stopped leaking. there's no way i'd change the seals on these two motors. my old crx had 305k on original seals, an that didn't leak at all. think here people. don't just slavishy follow bad habits born of mechanics having to work on detroit garbage.
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Thanks for your messages. The car has been getting Mobil 1 for most of its life and has regular changes, so I'm thinking the seals are probably all in good shape, especially since I only have about 65K miles on the car. The parts are relatively cheap, though, so maybe I should just have them on hand in case oil is really leaking out (as opposed to just "wet").
Speaking of mileage, I called a local dealer and also a trusted import shop (the price difference is amazing!), and the import shop said not to replace it until 105K. The dealer said the ones they take off are usually in good shape, and that I could go another year or two. So now I'm back at square one: the service manual says 7 years (84 months) or 105K. I have 7 years but only 65K, and I know I won't get to 105K until another 4 years. Should I wait? I understand I'm in deep doo-doo if the belt breaks, but I'm suspecting the service manual is probably conservative. What would you all do?
The other factor is that I will be DIY with a friend of mine who has a garage lift, experience, etc., so I'd be lying if a part of me didn't want to do this procedure early anyway. But if I know for sure I could wait another year or two it would be tempting to hold off. Either way, I just want to do the right thing for my car since I hope to keep it long enough for my son to learn to drive it, which is about 13 years from now!
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On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 11:21:47 -0800, Greg wrote:

Personally, I would do it now.
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Greg wrote:

What kind of environment does the car spend it's time in? Mild climates with neither extreme heat nor cold are much easier on the rubber parts than are climates with extreme heat and/or cold. Maine winters, Arizona summers ... these things are hard on a car. San Jose, California area weather with the car garaged at night ... very easy on the vehicle.
In any case, I wouldn't change the seals at your stage.
John
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jim beam wrote:

If you can't get the seal out without scratching its bore, then you should definitely leave it alone. However, replacing the seals was standard practice at the independent Honda shop I worked at. It's fairly easy to get the old seals out without any problems using a small straight bladed screw driver. Indeed, I along with the other techs in the shop did it all the time and never had any problems.

Please refrain from applying prejudicial stereotypes where they do not belong. I have never worked on "detroit garbage" and hopefully never will nor do I consider my 10 years of professional experience to have been plagued by bad habits. Moreover, a shop tech cannot control the type of oil someone puts in their engine at some point in the future. Replacing the seals is therefore a good practice to ensure that the timing belt stays dry avoiding costly comebacks. In addition, in replacing the timing belt the gears are typically removed and cleaned which leaves the seals exposed. The cost of the seals and the small amount of labor is trivial compared to the cost of a prematurely failed timing belt due to oil contamination.
Eric
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Eric wrote:

not the bore, the shaft that the seal lip runs against.

that's my point. "standard practice" why? has anyone done any testing? or is "standard practice" slavishly following the other "standard practice" of every other shop that inherited its ideas from detroit?

how do you know? did you monitor vehicles after the work was done? were comparisons done with vehicles where original seals were left in?

just doing something because it's "standard practice" and not analyzing the problem is a bad habit.

that's true, but you can advise a client on what works best.

so really, "standard practice" is born of fear of comebacks, not reliability analysis. and why not - the customer pays.

have you ever seen a timing belt contaminated by oil? i've seen engines piss-wet with oil, but not a drop on the belt due to the pulley design.
bottom line eric, you're probably a sincere and conscientious guy that's doing what he believes best based on what he was taught. but things we get taught and which we then replicate, are not always best, simply repetition of what we were taught.
another example is skimming heads when doing head gaskets. if the head's not warped or pitted, it's inadvisable because it affects [albeit to a small extent] the valve timing, compression ratio and surface finish. it can also introduce grit to the motor thereby reducing life significantly and leave the head scored making the gasket leak again. but it's almost /always/ done. why?
1. it's quicker than cleaning the head instead. 2. fear of comebacks - "covering the bases". 3. it's "standard practice".
returning to seal replacement, the most vulnerable seal in the whole motor, [apart from the distributor which for some reason always leaks like crazy] is the output seal. but you can't get at that without taking out the transmission. so it /never/ gets changed - not with the timing belt anyway and hardly ever with a clutch. people only change the other seals they can easily get at. and the customer pays. but logically, if you're going to change seals, change them /all/.
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