Curious...

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wrote:


For some reason I'm not seeing jim's posts, just people's replies to them, so I'm replying to jim through Elle's post...
To set the record straight here, I am measuring CONSUMPTION, not LEVEL. My measurements do necessarily require me to make note of the level observed, but I am not using my checks for that.
In any case, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using my method for checking the level. The reason why Honda specifies the oil-checking method they do is to keep people from accidentally OVERFILLING the crankcase.
--
Tegger

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On 06/30/2010 04:06 PM, Tegger wrote:

so if you're measuring the span distance across the golden gate bridge, it's ok to start measuring in sausalito as long as you keep starting from the same spot?

and overfilling is precisely what you can do if you dip cold and your filter drain-back valve is functioning correctly. oil expands when it reaches operating temperature. filled to the top when cold means over-full when hot.
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wrote:

If what you wanted to know was the distance change from that spot and not the entire span, that would be the way to do it.

But he mentions that this was for measuring consumption only, not for deciding to add more. As long as he uses the same point of reference (like a specific spot on the bridge), he can accurately achieve his goal.

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On 06/30/2010 07:37 PM, Stewart wrote:

right, but you have to define the spots. saying you're measuring the bridge when you're really measuring from one side of the bridge to the next town is not right.

not unless he knows what the oil temperature is when he measures it - "cold" in his part of the world can be subject to a 50°C temperature delta - "hot" is maybe 10°C delta. and he has /no/ idea what his filter valve function is like. if he records how much he uses to refill hot, like the dipstick is calibrated for, then he'd be both consistent and eliminate the above variables.

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wrote:

His spot was defined, which was ambient temperature and on level ground (I believe that what was said, can't recall he exact wording).

The point of the dipstick being "calibrated" is arguable, at best.

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On 06/30/2010 09:37 PM, Stewart wrote:

but ambient is widely variable. taken to extreme, that could be -20°C or it could be +50°C. operating temperature for the oil in the pan otoh is a very narrow range. and that is the whole point.

well, it's marked for use under specific conditions. if those conditions are not met, the marking "calibration" doesn't work because of temperature, valve leakage, etc.
in an earlier thread [this has been rumbling on for a while], i mentioned the situation with something like the chrysler torque-flite transmission. it's "calibrated" to be read at operating temperature, with the motor [and thus the transmission oil pump] running. if the motor is off, and the oil is cold, the read oil level will be about 3" above that of where it's supposed to read. there is no possible argument that there is no point following factory procedure in that case. and although the result differences are not as dramatic for honda engine oil reading, the same principle applies here - because time and temperature after shut-down affect the oil level, the oil reading should be taken as per the factory specification, not per some vague supposition or underinformed notion.

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wrote:

Don't know where he lives, but yes, there could be a fairly large delta due to changes in ambient conditions. Of course, this could be accounted for based on the CTE if the ambient temperature was logged.

As mentioned previously, graduated (same as marked) is acceptable, though I would still think of it as a point of reference....but I don't want to beleaguer the point.... As far as valve leakage...how prevalent is this? I don't recall experiencing this happening over the years.

I don't know where he lives, and what the temperature delta was. As I mentioned, if one uses the CTE to calculate the volume change, it would probably be more accurate. In looking at the supplied data, there is a fairly large standard deviation/range for the seven first 1,000 mile readings (about 200 miles or about 12%-13%). I would think if one is trying to see if oil consumption changes over miles driven, it may be better to chart each 1,000 mile readings (1st, 2nd, 3rd) individually to see how they trend. I haven't followed this thread that closely...would you know what the values on the graph in the file at each datum? Is it ambient temperature?

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On 06/30/2010 10:38 PM, Stewart wrote:

absolutely. right now though, it's not even on the radar screen, let alone being addressed.

i don't know for sure, but i suspect it's fairly common with some brands. i used to use honda branded filters for example, but discovered by mistake that their drain-back valves appear to be pretty much useless. or at least, at the time that i was using them. if you warmed up the engine prior to oil change, then left the car to sit for an hour, the subsequent filter change involved no spillage. zero. the filter would be absolutely empty. every filter, every time. this is great if you don't want the honda problem of oil spillage over the exhaust and is arguably a "useful" feature (!), but it's not good for internal engine health. currently i'm using cheapo walmart brand made by champion labs, and despite their price, they've turned out to be much better, though i did have one that seemed to leak.
there are a number of other write-ups about this on the web. e.g. <http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html

i agree. but then we run into the fact that he changes the oil, mobil 1 no less, at only 3k miles....

yup, always ambient.

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Run the numbers for average temperatures from April to November in Southern Ontario where Tegger says on his web site that his car resides. We are talking about a change in average temperature of around 27 degrees F. The difference in oil volume with a change in temperature of about 30 F is about 0.045 quart. This is comparable to the reading error. Plus, like reading error, with enough readings, it is going to average out.
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On 07/01/2010 07:37 AM, Elle wrote:

you should sign up to defend gasoline vendors against this kind of frivolous lawsuit:
<http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0605/gasoline-costs-hot-weather-class-action-lawsuit-alleges/
--
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wrote:

The CTE of unused motor oil is 0.00039/f http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/cubical-expansion-coefficients-d_1262.html (this is actually a pretty handy piece of software)
So a 30 degree F delta equates to a +1.17% change in volume at +30 http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/volumetric-temperature-expansion-d_315.html
At a mean of about 1600 mi/qt, that would equate to a max error of 18.72 miles. Considering the measurement method, that is probably not too bad.
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Interesting. Ambient temperature was one variable I couldn't control, so it's nice to know it doesn't have much effect on the oil level.
The graph says there appears to be no connection between ambient temperature and oil consumption.
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It may be interesting to graph each 1k miles separately to see the trends when you have enough data. Since we now know that there is a difference of 0.039% volume change per degree F, you could use that in your spreadsheet calculation if you so desired.
Here is a fairly simple explanation about oil and evaporation http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03025.htm
I do know that hygroscopic polymers (petroleum based products) absorb moisture, and to remove it prior to processing it needs to be driven at a specific temperature (temperature dependent on type of polymer and time), in a -40c or lower dew point system that has the ability to either absorb the moisture through desiccant, or exhaust it (compressed air drying systems). If there is no way for the moisture to be absorbed or escape, it will not "dry" or removed.
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I do have all the the ambients when checked at start/end, so I could make a graph revision incorporating that.

Nice.
ASTM D-5800 is desgned to specifically address evaporation, as I outlined in a recent post entitled, "Oil "volatility"/"evaporation": The REAL story".
API SM-graded engine oils are refined to the point where volatiles that might boil-off (above the standard) are removed during the manufacturing process.

Oil and water don't mix, officially. Do you maybe mean that they form emulsions with moisture?
<snip>
--
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They absorb. Don't forget that even though they start with petroleum based stock, they are highly modified and merged with a wide range of monomers and chemicals during the polymerization process.

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Some of which can actually soak up water, like vinyl?
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Tegger

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Polyurethane, Polyamides (nylons), PET, Polycarbonate, Butyrate to name a few. Some that don't absorb would be PVC, POM (delrin), Polyethylene, Polypropylene. Of course any that do not absorb, excessive surface moisture can be an issue due to condensation (cold trucks/warm warehouse), so some processors may "dry" all materials, or at least preheat them.
Most will absorb at a rate of about .1% per hour at 50% RH until they reach an equilibrium. Saturation levels are usually at about .25% at extremely high RH, though lowering ambient RH does not lower resin moisture content. Most manufacturers will usually specify a maximum for processing at .03%, though that is usually in an industrial setting with high output rates and the material is resident in the processing system for seconds.
In the medical device arena, extremely small parts mean long residence times (as much as 30 minutes or more), and the moisture levels necessary directly correlate to residence times. I normally specify .005% moisture for many processes, sometimes .000% to avoid hydrolysis that may lead to reduced component integrity.
Of course, the above is only a brief summary.........I have had discussions/debates with contemporaries that have lasted hours on the best methods to achieve proper moisture levels for processing.

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Most drink containers are PET, PETE or PC. Oxygen/water transfer is limited by the barrier coating (can't remember its composition just now), but would the substrate actually /absorb/ water in the absence of the barrier coating?
My trade mags tell me that Nestle has had technical challenges with its supplier in its attempts to reduce the weight of its cold-fill plastic bottles. Make the substrate thinner and weaker, and the barrier coating is more difficult to make impermeable.

Hm. Vinyl seems to soak up water like crazy, to my observation. It turns white and swells. The whiteness and swelling stops right at the waterline.

PE is often used for food storage. It /appears/ affected not at all by water, from what I can see.

Polypro floats, and also does not /seem/ to be affected by water. Polypro is used extensively for the sort of pint and half-pint tubs used when you buy potato- and macaroni-salads at the deli. These are, of course, loaded with water.
And what about styrene? PS is ubiquitous in the single-serving drink/pudding/yogurt/cereal market, usually in combination with ultrasonically-sealed lids.

Never heard of that before. My industry has some dealings with food processors. Plastic containers go straight from pallet to packing line, and usually experience no preconditioning of any kind prior to packing, other than a quick washing and drying. The drying is to remove surface moisture, not the moisture inside the material.

For a gallon of motor oil, that would equate to about a third of an ounce, or less than a quarter-teaspoon. You'd never see 1/4 TSP on a dipstick.
--
Tegger

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208.90.168.18:

Sorry. A third of an ounce is 2 tsp, not 1/4 tsp.
I have an excuse: How often does one need to convert teaspoons to ounces?
--
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Wouldn't that be 8 pinches....
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