Curious...

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snipped-for-privacy@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in writes:


I just use Wite-Out. Better contrast.

Yep. One-tooth-off is too many.
I lay the new belt on top of the old to make certain the marks are in the exact correct place.

A caution: Rotating the engine means the belt marks will gradually diverge, so you need to get the alignment perfect the fist time.
Also important: Take VERY CAREFUL note of the tension on the old belt BEFORE releasing it. Duplicate that tension on the new belt. This often means needing to give the tensioner a bit of an extra tug by hand while snugging down the tensioner bolt. Left to its own devices, the tensioner is, as likely as not, to make the belt too loose.
--
Tegger

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On 06/28/2010 03:15 PM, Tegger wrote:

not if the workshop manual procedure is followed correctly. excess belt tension is a very /very/ bad thing. the cam bearing runs directly against the aluminum of the cylinder head - there is no additional or replaceable bearing material. if the belt tension is excessive, the cam will touch the metal, not run on its usual hydrodynamic oil cushion, and then proceed to munch through the head. the only remedy then is head replacement - go to a junk yard and you will see examples of this for yourself. correctly followed, factory procedure will set the correct tension every time. stick with the factory procedure.

untrue. for the reasons stated above.
that said, the tensioner /does/ need to be be carefully prepared and the surfaces cleaned for there to be no "sticktion" or mistakes,.but otherwise, when done correctly, the factory procedure will set the correct belt tension each and every time. adding to that tension, by any means or with any random second-guessing, or because of some misinformed impression that has no basis in fact, is a very expensive mistake. and very bad advice which you should not be making.
--
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jim beam ( snipped-for-privacy@privacy.net) writes:

Do you recommend replacing the tensioner spring 'as a matter of course' based on the general principal that springs in service can get weak over time?

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On 06/30/2010 06:15 PM, M.A. Stewart wrote:

nope. the modulus of the steel is not time-dependent so the "general principle" of "weakening" is a popular misconception. the only factors that can "weaken" springs are wear [effective length change], fatigue and high temperatures. since this spring only moves when the belt is being tensioned - at ~100k miles between operations, wear is not a factor. same for fatigue also. finally, this spring doesn't operate at a temperature that will soften it [although that doesn't affect modulus], so again, the answer is "no" in any degree.

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jim beam ( snipped-for-privacy@privacy.net) writes:

What about sympathetic side to side vibration of the spring when the engine is operation? Granted there is not a lot length change, but there is a lot of cycles. Is the side to side movement so tiny as to not matter?

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On 06/30/2010 07:05 PM, M.A. Stewart wrote:

it's damped - the spring has a polymer sleeve that stops that.

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snipped-for-privacy@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in

There's a plastic sleeve covering the coils.
--
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snipped-for-privacy@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in

Since I help the tensioner with my hand, I don't rely much on the spring. However, the spring is only about $10, so replacing it certainly isn't a bad idea.
--
Tegger

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On 07/01/2010 06:28 AM, Tegger wrote:

are you using a belt tensiometer to measure instead? if not, then you don't know more about the application than the manufacturer does. to simply guess and tension above the spec set by the carefully selected procedure and equipment provided to you by the manufacturer is potentially very harmful and you shouldn't be recommending it to others..

do you replace the mounting bolt as well? replacing a non-wearing part is utterly illogical.
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On Jun 28, 2:21pm, snipped-for-privacy@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote:

This will be something like my fourth timing belt change job on the various Civics I have owned. All my tips for changing the belt are at http://sites.google.com/site/hondalioness/timingbeltreplacement . Interestingly, the one time I lost timing (due to setting the tensioner incorrectly), I followed the shop manual's directions very carefully and all turned out fine. Specifically, I did the following: (1) aligned the camshaft sprocket's embossed timing marks with the top of cylinder head; (2) use a screwdriver held flat on the cylinder head to help ensure it is lined up with the camshaft sprocket up marks; (3) use a rod in the #1 cylinder spark plug hole, and watch for the rod rising to its max height; and (4) make sure the crankshaft keyway is at 12 oclock, a.k.a. TDC.
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I wonder if all this would be easier if North American plumbing supplies were made in Metric...
--
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Elle wrote [on a pulley tool made in part from a plumbing fitting]

Plumbing fittings and pipes, metric or not, are specified using nominal diameters. Hence I think it would be about as hit-and-miss with the metric system. I found that even bushings (a.k.a. reducers) with the same nominal inside diameter may have a different, external hex nut diameter. A person looking for a bushing for the homemade pulley holder tool needs to take a metric ruler to the hardware store and check for an external hex diameter of at least 50 mm (or possibly 45 mm, depending on what model Honda a person has).
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On 06/28/2010 10:59 AM, Elle wrote:

i always found using 1/2" drive tools for this job to be frightening because of the torque wind-up. any tool breakage, and that is easily possible with breaking torques well in excess of 300Nm, could lead to serious injury. i recommend 3/4" drive instead - virtually eliminates wind-up, and thus is much much safer.
i think it also worth mentioning that impact tools are a better solution. while they're not cheap, they do make the job a lot quicker and safer. there are a number of cordless divers available now with very high output torques, and they are, in my opinion, a great investment if you work on your own vehicle.
and high value applications go well beyond crank pulley bolts. e.g. rusted exhaust bolts. normally, they would be broken or need cutting off involving considerable expense, time and frustration. with an impact driver, they come right off.
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When I freed my 2003 Civic's pulley bolt a few weeks ago (in preparation for replacing the TB later this summer), I happened on a technique that makes me feel very safe when using the 1/2-inch drive socket, extensions, and breaker bar: Apply force to the end of the pipe extension (placed over the breaker bar) in impulses. Do not apply force steadily.
I used a Pittsburgh Tool 19 mm socket and it was fine. I have never broken a 1/2-inch drive tool in the several times I have freed pulley bolts on my Civics. But it is true that many report they have.
3/4-inch drive would be nice, but because of the success I personally have had with the 1/2-inch drive tools, I have opted to stick with 1/2- inch drive. For those with more money and less experience (or maybe a buddy with 3/4-inch drive tools?), yes, 3/4-inch drive is preferable.
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On 06/30/2010 08:47 AM, Elle wrote:

for the 2003 civic, it seems honda have the problem much more under control - my experience is that the breaking torque is much more in line with originally applied torque - so 1/2" drive is probably fine. but for the earlier vintage civics, 88-91 for instance, the breaking torque can be insane, and any tool, like a 1/2" drive with an 18" extension that can wind up 45° or more before the bolt lets go, is a serious injury looking for somewhere to happen.
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The bolt uses a super fine thread pitch regardless of whether it is a 01-05 Civic or 90s Civic. Also, the nominal diameter is the same for both the 01-05 and 90s Civics.
What is different is that the bolt head takes a 19 mm socket for the 01-05 Civic. For many 90s Civics, the bolt head takes a 17 mm socket. Also the bolt is longer for the newer Civics.
My estimate for freeing the bolt on my '03 Civic the other week is still, like my 90s Civics, around 600 ft-lbs. I estimated this using the length of my extension pipe and applying my body weight to the end. I do not like the windup of the 1/2-inch drive sockets and extensions but the impulse method seems to largely spare a person the risk of recoil.
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On 06/30/2010 05:57 PM, Elle wrote:

but the pulley wheels are secured differently. in later models, the pulley and crank are splined. the 88-91, there is only a woodruff key. that allows small angular motion of the pulley and the bolt tightens in use. evidence of angular motion visible here:
compared to a later [splined] model here:
worth contrasting is the evidence that honda use thread lock on the later model also:
with thread lock
without

impact drivers [impulse] save a whole bunch of time and sweat also.
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I am convinced it is simply the super fine thread enmeshing due to the naturally cyclic operation of the engine. Your photos do not persuade one way or the other AFAIC.

To get an impact driver that works reliably on the pulley bolt costs a whole lot.
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On 06/30/2010 07:04 PM, Elle wrote:

look again elle - one bolt has thread lock, the other doesn't. neither shows thread binding. the one with only the woodruff key shows a whole lot of rotational galling. if that kind of plain visual evidence doesn't "persuade", then not much will.

that's why i said "they're not cheap". but i went on to talk about value. i actually didn't buy mine for the pulley bolt, i bought it for a stubborn oxygen sensor removal that was looking like it could ruin a manifold. for that, it worked where nothing else would. and i've since found it to be exemplary for all kinds of rusted and stubborn fasteners where threads usually strip or bolts just shear. it has paid for itself many times in non-ruined parts alone. factoring in time and sweat, you can't beat it - it's a great investment.
--
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I look at this group frequently. And, I read (with interest) Tegger's "oil evap" post.
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