Honda "Drive by Wire" question... what if the power goes out?

I remember that one - and if you put in a nickel it gives you a piece of pie, too.

Reply to
Sparky Spartacus
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Better driver training would save more lives and cost no additional lives, unlike failing ABS and airbags.

SUVs are *not* unstable by the wildest stretch of the imagination. Under any normal driving conditions they are as stable as anything else on the road. Under limited emergency conditions they can become unstable, just as a regular car can become unstable, when in the hands of an unskilled driver.

Note that a standard 80,000# tractor trailer has a significantly higher center of gravity than any SUV and you do not see them rolling over at anywhere near the rate of SUVs. This is because of better driver training. You of course do see semis rolled over, but the factor in the majority of those cases was not the higher COG, but rather the braking limitations of an 80,000# vehicle that has a pivot point 1/3 of the way down it's length.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

Bad comparison, seat belts do not have the ability to cause accidents like a failing drive-by-wire or ABS system or airbag can.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

I think you're referring to the Throttle Position Sensor, a.k.a. TPS, not electronic throttle. Engine computers have had sensors to monitor throttle position for years, at least since the advent of fuel injection. This has nothing to do with electronic throttle control where the computer actually has control of the throttle position.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

I've not seen any redundant sensors in any GM vehicle I've worked on. My current '97 truck with the 7.4l Vortec V8 certainly has no redundancy in it's sensors. A single sensor each for throttle position, intake air temperature, mass air flow, etc. Certainly if it looses one of the sensors to the extent it can detect it, it will enter limp mode, but absent redundant sensors, there are failure modes that the computer has no way to detect.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

America, and indeed the world, pursue what is seen to be cutting edge technology just like codfish rush to bite an unbaited hook. Have things REALLY improved by quantum steps?

Software capabilities are not so greatly changed, and the chip technology - though greatly evolved - has developed solely to service the software which, indeed, has become bloated and glitchy.

You could run word processors, databases, spreadsheets, games, etc even on the old black and white Z80 machines. One company where I used to work ran the whole operation with two 10 megabyte harddrives and a Z80 network system.

Personal computers today do little that the old ones wouldn't do in some form or the other. Nor do they always do the job so terribly much quicker or better, although the microprocessors grunt along at multigigahertz speeds. We garbage mongers that feed the data into them are, oft as not, the limiting factor.

Mainframes had somewhat different requirements. They didnt have to cater to the executive gamer showoff computer-illiterate.

Reply to
<HLS

Why - your mention of a urban legend is just that: legend...

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Reply to
mst

So tell us what innovations have happened with processors and hard drives? They've made processors speedier, and maybe added more to the instructions set, or have increased capacity from 32-bit to 64-bit, and have made hard drives with more CAPACITY at lower cost to the consumer.

Yes, we have new drive interfaces, such as SATA, but that is merely a higher rate interface that moves data at a HIGHER CAPACITY.

My argument still stands - there has not been any true innovation to computer hardware/peripheral components, they have only gotten speedier moving those 0's/1's around and they move MORE (re: CAPACITY) 0's/1's than predecessors.

Reply to
mst

that's not correct pete. the dynamic that causes all the rollover problems in suv's is transition from a lean in one direction while turning in the other - a rapid s-bend. most suv's will flip. that's fundamental instability. it's been known about for ages, but the u.s., in typical response to lobbying pressure, chooses to test suv's in the one mode most are known to pass, the j-bend test. why is this? if you dig about in the nhtsa web site, you'll see the explanation - it's political - they can't impliment a test that would condemn a significant portion of vehicles in domestic production. you can bet your rear end that if this same test condemned imports, it would be implimented tomorrow.

Reply to
jim beam

on chasis and

have flocked to

on and to which the

technology.

design, they

Do you think that car companies should produce what the companies think is right for the American consumer, or what consumers want?

These companies have obligations to shareholders and their employees to turn a pretty profit, or else.

Reply to
Elle

That is exactly the same maneuver that results in cars rolling over as well. My point still stands. SUVs are *not* unstable, they simply have lower limits to that stability. Unskilled drivers will roll either, they just do it more often in an SUV since it's less forgiving of their lack of competence.

It's been known for ages that the typical driver has insufficient training. It's politics that prevent upgrading driver training and licensing standards. As with everything else, it is more palatable to blame an inanimate object or large corporation than to blame the person that actually caused the problem.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

******What significant performance, control, and reliability benefits do you see from the by-wire system ( as it has been defined as applying to the Honda application)?
Reply to
<HLS

I wouldn't worry about not having a mechanical connection.

We have had electronic throttles for a long time with very few problems. We have also had hydraulic brakes since the 1930's with very very few problems of total failure.

Reply to
John S.

i disagree. while in an ideal world, driver training would be perfect, it's never going to be. go sit with my grandmother as she drives her crown vic. "why are you sweating? - the air conditioner's on max". no kidding grandma.

reality is, vehicles need to take account of the "average" driver. i personally dislike abs because it doesn't offer me choices on my braking limits. but for my grandmother, it's the /only/ way to go - there's no amount of driver training will /ever/ get her up to a standard that would ever allow her to steer out of a skid or have /any/ chance of fighting wheel lift in an suv. i therefore say that while /you/ may feel you can control an suv competently, it's unrealistic to expect everyone else to approach the standard necessary. the only responsible approach is [and i hate to say this] do what the europeans do and go for active stability control on suv's. that vehicle platform is just not capable of being "safe" without it.

Reply to
jim beam

you're tooling along at 20% throttle, 2k rpm. you want to accelerate and go to 100% throttle. but your engine's only good for wot above 4k rpm. you need to shift. but it's a stick and you don't. but you do get some pull up to about 60% throttle. why throw away 40% that's not being utilized? electronic control saves you gas.

ok, so you don't drive a stick, but you have an old hydraulic automatic. again, you want to go up a steepish hill and because it won't pull at low rpm's, you need the transmission to shift. it won't until you kick it to the floor because the transmission can't detect load, only whether you've operated the kickdown. sure, you can manualy over-ride, but why? electronic controls know exactly the engine load and can therefore determine the grade of hill. selection of gear ratio and throttle position is /much/ better.

besides, what's with this misconception that we need direct throttle linkage? anyone here ever worked on diesels? anyone here know that the diesel govenor does? there's no direct linkage to fuel injection on a diesel - it's all done by the govenor. if that thing fails, you have ZERO engine control. diesels have been like this from day 1.

Reply to
jim beam

I stand corrected. Thanks for clearing that up. :)

nb

Reply to
notbob

Zero to five volts.

Toyota MDT in MO

Reply to
Comboverfish

Wrong. Remember the vacuum operated modulator valve? They worked great until the diaphram broke and ATF got sucked into the engine. Those were the days, man, those were the days....

sure, you can manualy over-ride, but why?

Reply to
High

Few use manual transmissions now, and even if they did, the 'by wire' technology would not change a thing.

Even with diesels, 'by wire' actuation does nothing unique.

IF automated highways ever became a reality, then a totally electronic system might be the way to go...collision avoidance, route selection, traffic flow optimization, police interception, etc...all might be controlled by computer...

I think I will stay home if that ever happens...

Reply to
<HLS

Yet brakes still fail now and then, from lines going bad, slipping, etc.

My only question, however, was regarding the steering should power be lost. I have had experience with an engine going offline while at speed, and would prefer to maintain some steering control if I ever found myself in a similar situation! Dittos for you or anyone else hwo happened to be out on the road with me. I still am not sure about whether Honda has or is going to have DBW steering, and as for throttle, I asked at another dealership today. None of the sales staff really had any specifics on how DBW throttle works, or if they are going to do steering that way. The write up book I saw on the features and specifications for the forthcoming Honda SI Civic (Which I had heard would have it at the other place) had no mention at all of any DBW throttle or features. If they are trying to "slip it in there" like that at Honda, that's pretty sneaky. Truth be known, if the one salesperson hadn't told me, I might never have known to ask.

David

Reply to
David E. Powell

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