Honda "Drive by Wire" question... what if the power goes out?

The chevy malibu doesn't use drive by wire steering. It is merely electricaly assisted mechanical steering.

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Reply to
AZ Nomad
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Having written programs for x86 machines since DOS 3 was the hot ticket, I think you have a slanted view.

What is perceived as "bloat" by the public is a combination of two factors: increased packaged data and the overhead required for proper structure. When I started it was considered pretentious to refer to an accomplished programmer as a "software engineer," whereas that is the minimum expected of any modern programmer; the senior programmers are "software architects." (I am neither, since it was only a sideline for me and I couldn't ride the rocket. I am still a "cowboy coder" who can knock out small applications and utilities without making a big mess of it.)

Did you ever see a DOS machine run on a network? It was ugly - surely you recall the "share" TSR to make files multi-accessible. There were email readers in the DOS days, but do you recall a web browser?

The good old days were good mainly because we know everything came out okay. However, in this case, we can go back. You can still load DOS on any modern Windows capable box. Go for it and let us know how it works out.

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

This is the finest hair I've ever seen split!

Reply to
Sparky Spartacus

Wow, do you have a cite for this?

The post to which I replied said "changed", not "improved" - that's more of a philosophical discussion.

Luxury! The first disk drives I worked with were the 2311s on the early IBM S/360s - 7.25 MB/pack (100 cyl x 10 heads, IIRC, 7,250 bytes/track).

True, and computers don't do anything that a bunch of guys with abacuses couldn't also do, but time is a major factor - imagine a moon shot without computers or a lot of modern medicine.

How'd you know I'm retired from the mainframe business (mostly programming them)?

Reply to
Sparky Spartacus

These are all changes to the technology involved - did you mean something other than "changed", e.g., "improved"?

Moving from a parallel interface to a serial one is certainly a *change* (your term, not mine).

Since when? Are you going back to the 8088 chips? IBM 650 computers,

701's, 7090's, etc.?
Reply to
Sparky Spartacus

You seem to be ignoring the demand generated by skillful advertising.

So how much has GM made the past year? Ford? How about Honda & Toyota? Hmmm.

Reply to
Sparky Spartacus

So why did humans move out of caves?

Reply to
Sparky Spartacus

Do you have a cite for this assertion?

Reply to
Sparky Spartacus

Just think, though, no more speeding tickets.

Reply to
Sparky Spartacus

How many layers of gold leaf are you planning on putting on that turd?

In other words, Sparky, take your specious "If it isn't the newest, bestest, fastest, it must be garbage", and the implied "If you aren't using the newest/fastest/bestest, you're too stupid to move out of a cave" crap and stick it where the sun don't shine. Something being

*ABLE* to be improved doesn't imply a need, or even a desirability, for the improvement to happen - Only the possibility of doing so. Also phrased as "just because it's the hot new thing doesn't mean it's any good." - Ever heard of Thalidomide? And the results of using it?

Things as they stand in automotive technology, are quite functional now. Further development, while being *POSSIBLE*, is neither required, nor in some cases, desirable, for many currently in-use automotive systems.

An old programmer's line: "A program is never *DONE*, but you do have to ship it sooner or later."

In other words, there's the choice between continuing to hang bells and whistles (needed or not) off the program, and actually getting it to the customer - *ANY* program can be tweaked and tuned and fiddled with until doomsday, if desired. But somewhere, somebody has to step in and say "Hey! We've gotta ship this thing if we wanna eat!"

Cars have reached that point. Particularly the control systems. The next major change in vehicle systems won't come until the day that we can make *100 PERCENT* reliable, sentient machines that can respond to a situation as well as or better than a human *EVERY SINGLE TIME*. At which point, cars will be ready to go to "full auto drive". Until the "Eureka Moment" that shows us how to make things absolutely infallible happens, I'll continue to be a luddite and insist on purely mechanical/hydraulic control of my brakes and steering, *WITHOUT* any input from a computer, thanks.

Reply to
Don Bruder

OK, Sparky... You've been itching for it, so here it is - *MY* application of "ain't technology wonderful?!?":

(It's called a killfile - It's a sort of "storage area" for morons and fools who have nothing useful to say, but insist on running their clueless mouths anyhow - Say "buh-bye", Sparky... You no longer exist in my world. Which is a great improvement over 5 minutes ago.)

Reply to
Don Bruder

LOL, interesting turn of phrase.

Reply to
Sparky Spartacus

How nice - so you're no longer in mine, either.

Your overreaction to my posts has been noted.

Reply to
Sparky Spartacus

I'm not sure about the Honda system, but the GM system allows the computer to use the throttle to make other things that are happening transparent to the driver. I know that the new v-8's with the 4-8 cylinder technology use the electronic throttle to make the shift from 4-8 cylinder transparent. The electronic throttle is also used to "improve" tranmission shift quality. There are bound to be all sorts of good reasons why you want to control the throttle. Personally, as a tech that works on the vehicles, I hate the fact that I can no longer "blip" the throttle under the hood. I can use a scan tool to change rpm, but there is no way, other then using a helper, to rev the engine quickly anymore.

I also find that many of the vehicles have a very "disconnected" feeling from the throttle. Some are better then others, so I'm sure it's just a matter of tweaking the calibrations.

Now when it comes to "steering by wire".....I'm not sure that I'd be in favour of that.

Ian

Reply to
shiden_kai

country

car

what

skillful

I agree that marketing and advertising and making a buck play a huge role in design. I agree the outcome is most certainly not always a better design, engineering-wise. I could even stomach someone's argument that most design changes are not engineering oriented at all.

But America is also a revoltingly consumer-ist society. Which came first--the advertising blitzes pushing "bigger; more," or some sort of instinctual drive from Americans to insist on bigger more--is debatable.

So Americans want pickup trucks and SUVs which rarely satisfy any physical need and are merely to keep up with the Joneses. What's an auto company executive to do to keep food on his family's table? So to speak.

But safety, things like better fuel mileage or more Hp performance, are not ignored. Many improvements do lengthen the life of a car, etc.

their

Honda & Toyota? Hmmm.

Yes, I know. But I hesitate to say more without reading up on why GM and Ford has been going down the proverbial can the last several years. I thought it was more like labor problems: GM and Ford can't build a car cheaply. I dunno. Someone can post a citation on why they're failing while I guess Honda and Toyota are doing fine. 'Cause America still loves big, gas guzzling vehicles, from what I see.

Reply to
Elle

Can you point to any research that support this conclusion? I would be very interested to see it, since all the research I have seen supports the opposite conclusion: That driver training is ineffective at improving safety.

Please note that I am asking for references to actual peer reviewed research, not just opinion.

Here is a good place to start:

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Reply to
Bob

Advertising first, check out the history of GM.

Didn't the Japanese carmakers answer this question in the 70's?

Which safety innovations (after the rear view mirror, which was a racing innovation) were not mandated? The US automakers have fought every change tooth & nail (emissions as well as safety - Ford famously tried to sell safety in their '56 models & lost a bundle).

So, you don't want to comment until all the facts are in? (a famous quote by Gen Turgidson in "Dr. Strangelove"). ;)

The Japanese carmakers seem to be able to crank out cars profitably from their US plants, so I don't think it's primarily the cost of labor. Did you have anything specific in mind with "labor problems"?

"These companies have obligations to shareholders and their employees to turn a pretty profit, or else"

Leading to many very unhappy employees & shareholders as of late. ;)

One final observation - the price of every new GM car includes something like $1,500 for health care costs (plus another chunk for retirement), which foreign carmakers, Asian & European, don't incur because those countries have universal health coverage & retirement. Wouldn't it be ironic if it were the auto (and other) CEOs who lead the charge to universal health coverage in the US?

Reply to
Sparky Spartacus

I

"bigger;

to

I'll believe you. :-)

the

food

70's?

I don't know.

I think it's hard to compare the successes of two companies satisfying the same basic need, but also many others, operating in two different countries, with different cultures and mores and different governmental philosophies.

lengthen

which was a racing

fought every

famously tried

I reckon you're mostly right.

I think also of reports (or the cinemization) of lawsuits where car companies defend against making a certain design change, because the cost of the 'wrongful death' yada lawsuits is much lower than the cost of the design change.

Still, on a day to day basis with engineers, I don't buy that they are idiots who never object to certain proposed features as being inherently unsafe that will result in a car with many problems, threatening life and property. And so costing the company money, yada.

up

can

dunno.

I

still

(a famous

profitably from

of labor. Did

After I posted, I did notice one of the lastest articles on GM's problems said a major component was the cost of the company's health care plans.

Some are saying that's GM management's screwup, though.

So, no, I don't have all the facts. Surely there's a site or two that talks about why GM and Ford are doing so poorly, and how Honda manages in comparison.

As you suggest below, my suspicion is that some large companies are already starting to push somewhat for universal care. (I may have read as much.) They won't be gung-ho for it, I suppose, for some time (if ever), because their business ties in with that of insurers.

I'm not talking about a conspiracy, but more about how executives look out for each other; one hand washes the other; etc.

their employees to

of late. ;)

includes something

retirement),

because those

Wouldn't it be

charge to

politics of

Sure.

We'd then maybe have a two-pronged attack on current American cultural mores: With the ailing American car companies, more small cars would go on the road. With the ailing health insurance system, Americans would be more willing to accept catastrophic health insurance plans and not accept every last procedure/drug (efficacies being not clear) their doctor prescribed.

Reply to
Elle

I think the screwup was that they didn't support the "socialized medicine" push in the 1960s. Whether it was because they couldn't screw over their buddies at the country club or because they thought it was a communist plot to have *all* children vaccinated or it was just apathy, they are paying the cost of a private health care system.

Of course, the ultimate cost will be paid by the GM employees and retirees and all of the rest of us as we are gradually pushed out of the health care insurance system.

It is the best kind of conspiracy because there is never more then a wink or a nod between the conspirators.

Of course, they do incur those costs for their US factories. One advantage to Honda and Toyota is that they have relatively few US retirees and their workforce is younger (healthier) because the factories have only been running for 10 - 20 years. If we project current trends out another 20 - 40 years, Honda and Toyota US operations will be broke. But then again, everyone will be broke.

Actually, I think this is an issue who's time is coming fast.

Reply to
Gordon McGrew

Are you veering OT because the power went out on the drive-by-wire steering?

Sorry - I couldn't resist.

Reply to
Michael Pardee

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