Waiving the right to remain silent, snipped-for-privacy@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart)
" Most of the hydrogen produced today is consumed on site, such as at an oil
refinery, and is not sold on the market. From large-scale production,
hydrogen costs $0.32/lb if it is consumed on site. When hydrogen is sold on
the market, the cost of liquefying the hydrogen and transporting it to the
user must be added to the production cost. This can increase the selling
price to $1.00 - 1.40/lb for delivered liquid hydrogen. Some users who
require relatively small amounts of very pure hydrogen (such as the
electronics industry) may use electrolyzers to produce high-purity hydrogen
at their facilities. The cost of this hydrogen, which depends on the cost of
the electricity used to split the water, is typically $1.00 - $2.00/lb."
Larry J. - Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to e-mail
"A lack of common sense is now considered a disability,
So, what is your source of this information? per Honda, it gets closer to
the equivalent of 60 MPG with a range of 270 miles, are you sure your
decimal point is not in the wrong place?
I don't see where either say the vehicle gets 60 MPG. Rather, one graph
says it has 60% efficiency, which means 60% of the energy in the
hydrogen is converted to motion compared to about 20% in a gasoline engine.
In the NY Times article
(http://automobiles.honda.com/images/fcx-clarity/press/NY_TIMES.pdf ) it
does say that it gets the equivalent of 68 MPG, meaning that it goes 69
miles on amount of energy as there is in a gallon of gasoline.
I got the information from a Canadian magazine called 'Driven'.
It's a glossy, overpriced, psuedo car magazine. The Mar. 2008
edition on page 69 states a 171 litre fuel tank with a 435 kilometre
range. That works out to 5.97 MPG (U.S.).
171 L = 45.178 U.S. Gal
435 Km = 269.7 miles
Did the mag mess up?
What's a gallon of H2 cost?
Hydrogen is a gas, not a liquid, unless it is real cold. A volume to
volume comparison is meaningless, because if you double the pressure of
the hydrogen gas, you double the amount of hydrogen in gas the hydrogen
I don't know how much hydrogen costs.
Well, a liquid gallon of hydrogen mixed with oxygen is about two
cents, but that's about 90% oxygen by weight, so say you need ten
gallons of the mixture, for about 20 cents. The separation is the
snipped-for-privacy@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
See, this is why that Mars lander crashed...got to get your units right.
Hydrogen is a gas. Your can't have a gallon of, um, gas.
Is 171 liters liquid or compressed gas...was it 171 liters of gas at sea
The Chemistry Guy
Well you can. Take a gallon bottle of milk. Drink the milk. You are left
with a gallon of air in the bottle.
IIRC, it was 2500 PSI, which is about 130 times atmospheric pressure.
The chemistry guy who knows that gases take up space and can be measured
in gallons or litres (although that is useful unless you know the
temperature and pressure - remember the ideal gas laws?).
On Mar 31, 6:31 pm, snipped-for-privacy@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote:
i don't think they ever mentioned about liquid H2 (LH2) to be used in
the Clarity. In fact, storing and transfering LH2 is very dangeous.
I beleive that the car uses compressed gaseous H2 instead. But how
much pressure is needed to store enough H2 for a 270 miles trip?
So i did some calculations based on these premises:
1) the volume ratio, liquid H2 at boiling point to gaseous H2 at
normal temperature, is 1/848
2) the volumetric energy density of LH2 is one quarter of that of
3) a fuelcells-powered vehicle has three times the energy efficency of
that of a gasoline-powered vehicle.
Now, let's say a gallon of gasoline gives a Honda Accord 35 miles,
then by energy content and engine's efficiency, a gallon of LH2 would
yield (35/4)x3 = 27 miles for a Honda Clarity
Then by volume ratio, i see that i would need 848 gallons of gaseous
H2 to go 27 miles on the Clarity
So to cover a distance of 270 miles, i would need a volume of 848 x
(270/27) = 8,480 gallons of gaseous H2 at standard atmospheric
pressure (1 atm)
Assuming a constant temperature, then by Avogadro's law, to compress
that volume to a fixed 45.2 gal container, a pressure of 8,480/45.2
= 187.6 atm = 2,748 psi is needed.
That looks like doable
Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.