Is Honda switching to timing chains?

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<http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=silent+chain&aq=f&aqi=g8g-m2&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fphea58825d28d998
Thanks again. They sure look different than the ones I remember from a long time ago.
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On 9/5/2010 2:23 PM, Cameo wrote:

    Individuals that aren't capable of paying attention to their affairs should not pass the blame for their stupidity to the manufacturer. Nor should the manufacturer change a product that hasn't had any *real* issues for the majority of consumers.
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It is true the chain is not a scheduled maintenance item like the belt is.
That is far, far from saying that the chain is free from needing service attention.
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"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote

OK, thanks. I was not aware that it would need maintenance. I'm soon taking my Accord in for its 60K major service and I'll ask about it, such as what they do to maintain it. The work will be done at an independent garage.
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Everyone who races in F500 (SCCA) has gone from chain drive to belt drive. Most of the high end motorcycles have gone to belt drive.
Maintenance free? How about free play? Chain adjustments can be a holy bitch. And if you think a belt is expensive, try a $300 chain. On top of the expense of labor.
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On 09/08/2010 09:08 AM, Dillon Pyron wrote:

there are many sound technical reasons to use belts. but chains have advanced a lot in recent years, and "pre-stretched" chain, where the initial high stretch rate is taken care of in the factory, not the engine, means they can be used for a comparatively long period without intervention. add that to the fact that consumers don't like getting the hose from unscrupulous dealers over-charging for belt changes, and the opportunity for the manufacturer to get the car into the "not worth spending the maintenance money" zone before it needs a new chain, and you have a financial decision to go with an inferior technical solution.
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Are you suggesting that accountants trump engineers? WOW! I'd never have expected THAT!
(So those without a sarcasm or cynicism detector, that was both)
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"Pre-stretching" may have something to do with it, but I doubt it. Pre- stretching has been in use since at least the '60s, so even all the old- style chains were likely pre-stretched.
Inverted-tooth chain links simply have a lot more contact area with the pin than the old link-chains. In addition, inverted-tooth chains ride on completely different sorts of sprockets than the old chains did, meaning there's less stress on the links.
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On 09/10/2010 03:25 PM, Tegger wrote:

nope. 80's.

sprocket teeth are irrelevant in the wear equation:
1. chain elongation [and thus valve timing drift] is caused by wear between the chain pins and the plates - tooth wear is insignificant.
2. for rollerless chain, lubrication is more critical than roller chain.
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Agreed. Honda used belts for a solid engineering reason.
Now the marketing mavens have taken over and are responding to the ignorant masses who think that a chain is inherently better, simply because it isn't a scheduled maintenance item.
Instead, it becomes an unexpected, unscheduled repair.
My brother's 91 Infiniti Q needed its timing chains replaced, unexpectedly of course, after about 8 years. $2700.
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On 09/05/2010 06:02 AM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

indeed - if there is a chain problem, it's costly. in fact, for many older cars with non-diy owners, the vehicle with a chain problem will become uneconomic to repair. thus it gets the vehicle off the road and the owner into the showroom buying a new one. [if they still have any brand loyalty left after being let down - the bit the mba bean counters somehow don't seem to be smart enough to factor into their cash flow projections]
with a scheduled maintenance item like a belt, and its relatively low cost [some independents here in the bay area advertise timing belt changes from only $250], you can keep that puppy on the road almost indefinitely.
from the engineering perspective, belts with their inherently lower mass, effective absence of stretch and smoother tooth engagement make for better emissions over the life of the engine, much better drive train operation and lower wear rates - technically, a much superior solution.
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On 9/5/2010 9:02 AM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

    I agree (as should any thinking person) that chains require maintenance. They (the chains) are moving pieces of machinery and everything that moves requires TLC through it's lifespan. For the peope that don't think that chains can stretch, they are sadly misinformed. Those chains are far more expensive than Honda's timing belts.
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On 09/05/2010 09:37 AM, Brian Smith wrote:

they're about $74 online for a civic vs $33 for a belt - hardly a material issue. what /is/ material though is that the belted engines are designed to be maintained. the chained engines are supposed to be pretty much "sealed for life". a fundamental philosophical difference that is part of the huge honda shift towards following the rest of the automotive world into "life limitation".
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On 09/05/10 09:02, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

8 years - what failed/how did it fail?
Hard to imagine anyone blaming MBA bean counters/auto engineers after 8 years of trouble free operation.
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Stretched.
Oh no, not blaming anyone on that. But if you buy a Honda now because "look, no more of those damned timing belts that need replaced!", don't expect that you've eliminated a maintenance or repair item. The timing belt will need addressed at some point.
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wrote:

It wasn't a Honda but I did have a 1987 Ford van with a 302 in it. At 60,000 miles I put on a new water pump. While I was in there I removed the timing chain cover and it had stretched enough that it was rubbing on the side of the cover. I replaced it with a double roller one from a performance parts place. They definitely do stretch.
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On 09/05/10 16:02, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

What happened then? Did the chain jump a tooth or something? $2700 is nothing to sneeze your nose at.
Sorry to be like a dog with a bone on this, but I'm curious about it for 2 reasons: 1. I have an '03 Accord I4, and 2. I'm comparing it in my mind to my old '69 Porsche 911T, which had hydraulic tensioners (one/cylinder bank) and it was the factory tensioners which failed (never did any damage, however). The engine got noisy (chain slapping around) when a tensioner failed, so after a couple of times (more or less annually, IIRC) I installed solid aftermarket tensioners. They needed to be adjusted annually for the additional slack in the chains, but it was routine maintenance (basically free - did it myself) and they never failed. Ultimately I had a *very* meticulous friend who recommended rebuilding the Porsche tensioners (that he ran in his '73 911S). The rebuilt tensioners were rock solid and required no maint. That was the situation until I sold the car a few years later.
FWIW, Honda calls the chain cam drive setup "maintenance-free throughout the life of the engine".
From: http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id 03112035861
"Cylinder Head and Valvetrain The i-VTEC engine is crowned by a compact, lightweight cylinder head made of pressure-cast aluminum alloy. Its 4-valve-per-cylinder design has double overhead camshafts activated by a silent chain drive to ensure extremely precise control of the cam phasing. The cam drive is maintenance-free throughout the life of the engine. The combustion chamber is designed with a relatively large "squish" area that promotes faster flame propagation on the ignition stroke. This results in more complete burning of the air-fuel mix and subsequently, lower levels of CO and HC emissions. "
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On Mon, 06 Sep 2010 05:19:36 -0400, Tony Harding wrote:

That's comforting, still glad I have the chain on my accord. I would expect it to be more durable than the old American style chains that always broke. FWIW,the chain (double iirc) on my old 93 Altima flapped about for over 200k, Now has 360k and no problems. I even removed the upper chain guide to try to quiet it down. I figure I have easily saved $3000 by not having to change a belt and water pump every 80k.
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You've never had a water pump failure?
Understand that the water pump replacement in a Honda was done not because it failed, necessarily, but because you were already in there and the incremental cost was about $25 to go ahead and replace it.
If the water pump on your Altima failed, you'd still have a helluva bill.
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On 09/06/2010 05:53 AM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

just did a water pump on a gf's civic. cheapo afermarket crap - the "bearing" had worn so badly, there was a full 1/8" side to side play on the thing.
bottom line - don't buy chinese vehicle components people! unless you don't mind replacing after only 30k miles that is.

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