Is Honda switching to timing chains?

Clams wrote in news:i61ch5$jk8$ snipped-for-privacy@news.eternal-september.org:

Just an extra 20K miles? Provided you're currently on an OEM belt, and it doesn't take you 2-years over the time-limit to get to that 20K, you'll be be fine. Honda builds-in quite a safety margin into its specified timing- belt life.

230K for a well-maintained Honda is nothing. With tall-enough gearing (such as that found in the Accord), and proper care, they go over 400K, easy.

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@62-183-169-81.bb.dnainternet.fi:

The chains used these days are nothing like the beefed-up bicycle-chains of yore.

They're awfully well-made these days. If oil-changes are done according to the Maintenance Minder, that chain will outlast the car. Even the tensioners look like they'll last forever.

The oldest chains are now about 8-years-old. My dealer tells me they've never had a single one come in with a chain problem, no matter the mileage. I'd be very surprised if /any/ of the new chains /ever/ break or slip.

Thank you for bringing some sense of reality back to this thread.

I can testify to that. My '94 Accord has now 292K in it and runs just great. I easily expect 500 K from it. Of course I stick to the recommended maintenance schedule religiously, which is every 7,500 miles, with (Castrol) oil change in between (every 3,750 miles). I had my 3rd timing belt replacement at 270 K and checking the old belt I could definitely see the wear on it. Heck, after switching to Chevron gas consistently about 2 years ago, I don't even hear the cylinder pings uphill in hot weather anymore. It must have cleaned out some of the carbon build-up. The only thing I might have the mechanic check next time is why my idle seem to be somewhat uneven at times. I wonder if cleaning the choke body could fix that. I don't think it was ever cleaned. Any ideas?

Don't they make the engine noisier though?

What happened then? Did the chain jump a tooth or something? $2700 is nothing to sneeze your nose at.

Sorry to be like a dog with a bone on this, but I'm curious about it for

2 reasons: 1. I have an '03 Accord I4, and 2. I'm comparing it in my mind to my old '69 Porsche 911T, which had hydraulic tensioners (one/cylinder bank) and it was the factory tensioners which failed (never did any damage, however). The engine got noisy (chain slapping around) when a tensioner failed, so after a couple of times (more or less annually, IIRC) I installed solid aftermarket tensioners. They needed to be adjusted annually for the additional slack in the chains, but it was routine maintenance (basically free - did it myself) and they never failed. Ultimately I had a *very* meticulous friend who recommended rebuilding the Porsche tensioners (that he ran in his '73 911S). The rebuilt tensioners were rock solid and required no maint. That was the situation until I sold the car a few years later.

FWIW, Honda calls the chain cam drive setup "maintenance-free throughout the life of the engine".

From:

"Cylinder Head and Valvetrain The i-VTEC engine is crowned by a compact, lightweight cylinder head made of pressure-cast aluminum alloy. Its 4-valve-per-cylinder design has double overhead camshafts activated by a silent chain drive to ensure extremely precise control of the cam phasing. The cam drive is maintenance-free throughout the life of the engine. The combustion chamber is designed with a relatively large "squish" area that promotes faster flame propagation on the ignition stroke. This results in more complete burning of the air-fuel mix and subsequently, lower levels of CO and HC emissions. "

That's comforting, still glad I have the chain on my accord. I would expect it to be more durable than the old American style chains that always broke. FWIW,the chain (double iirc) on my old 93 Altima flapped about for over 200k, Now has 360k and no problems. I even removed the upper chain guide to try to quiet it down. I figure I have easily saved $3000 by not having to change a belt and water pump every 80k.

Next year will be seven years since the 105k mile change out. Guess I'll make that decision next summer when it'll be about 210k miles / 7 years , depending on how well it's running.

Average mileage cost (nearly 25 cents / mile including depreciation, gas and maintenance, but excluding taxes & insurance) has increased marginally over the past few years primarily due to a second replacement of tires, brakes and battery plus a relatively costly pollution device repair and new ball joints, but yearly maintenance is still lower than the cost of taxes & insurance on a late model.

Of course at this stage, cost is just gas & maintenance (plus a small insurance and registration cost). Considering it still runs well (better & more quiet than any of the new cars I test drove a few years ago), my primary concern is an unexpected break down on extended mileage trips. Added advantage for this car is the extra headroom that was cut in Accord's 2003 year which is also lacking in most other compact & mid size cars.

Not sure. That was years ago.

Sit back in silence and consider that phrase for a few moments.

You've never had a water pump failure?

Understand that the water pump replacement in a Honda was done not because it failed, necessarily, but because you were already in there and the incremental cost was about $25 to go ahead and replace it.

If the water pump on your Altima failed, you'd still have a helluva bill.

LOL! As soon as the chain fails, the engine is no longer alive.

"Cameo" wrote in news:i61po0$f0q$ snipped-for-privacy@news.eternal- september.org:

No. The old bicycle-chains did, but not these. Go listen to any '03 CR-V's engine.

Thanx. I wonder how they changed those chains to make them so quiet. Can you point to a picture of such chains?

"Cameo" wrote in news:i6398m$53u$ snipped-for-privacy@news.eternal-september.org:

Thanks again. They sure look different than the ones I remember from a long time ago.

LOL. Cameo, you must not have known that timing belt vs chain is one of the biggest debates in car forums.

Thus spake "Howard Lester" :

Everyone who races in F500 (SCCA) has gone from chain drive to belt drive. Most of the high end motorcycles have gone to belt drive.

Maintenance free? How about free play? Chain adjustments can be a holy bitch. And if you think a belt is expensive, try a $300 chain. On top of the expense of labor.

there are many sound technical reasons to use belts. but chains have advanced a lot in recent years, and "pre-stretched" chain, where the initial high stretch rate is taken care of in the factory, not the engine, means they can be used for a comparatively long period without intervention. add that to the fact that consumers don't like getting the hose from unscrupulous dealers over-charging for belt changes, and the opportunity for the manufacturer to get the car into the "not worth spending the maintenance money" zone before it needs a new chain, and you have a financial decision to go with an inferior technical solution.