Make it easier to get safety features.

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It seems that if you want really good safety features with a Honda, you've got to go out and spend big bucks for a bunch of stuff you may not want or need, and I think this is unfortunate.
I've got an '05 Accord LX, which I like, but it seems that the best safety features aren't available unless you drop the big change for the EX 6-cyl.
I'd love to get an EX i4 with:
Traction Control Stability Control Electronic Brakeforce Distribution Emergency Brake Assist, and also,
DRL 4-wheel disk brakes (items not available on my '05 LX)
But it looks like I'd have to also end up paying for XM radio, dual zone climate control, glass roof, etc., etc ... whether I need them or not.
I think the revamped i4 has plenty of horsepower for most dedicated stick drivers, unless you happen to be hauling a carload of large adults or something.
Would anyone else buy these safety features for a relative few thousand extra dollars, or am I alone in this? +-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+
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Charles Lasitter wrote:

I think you're pretty much along in this one.
XM, dual-zone climate, etc. may all seem like frivolous things, but they're those kinds of features that you'll find, once you've had them a while, you'll wonder how you ever lived without them.
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Matt Ion wrote:

if you have in-car XM with a subscription, can you buy a standalone unit for the house and use the same subscription?
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On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:01:28 -0400, Charles Lasitter

Buy an extra set of wheels and switch between winter tires and summer tires. You will have all the traction control you need.

Not sure if I would like that or not.

How is this different from ABS?

If you mean something that helps you slam on the brakes, I'l pass. I don't need a computer to second guess how much brake pressure I want to apply.

Turn your headlights on.

Surprised that Honda is still using drum brakes on the Accord. Anyway, I don't think these add much to safety.

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Gordon McGrew wrote:

eveything ive read from people in the rust belt here indicate that rear discs arent worth it, compared to the maintenance needed on em.
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On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 23:09:20 -0700, SoCalMike

Anyone have stopping distances for an Accord LX model with rear disk vs drum? +-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+
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Not for the Accord, but http://farmindustrynews.com/mag/farming_stopping_power_2/ addresses the subject in heavy trucks and says: "Last December, ArvinMeritor brought a group of journalists to a research test track in Ohio, where the company demonstrated that drum brakes can outperform discs in a 60-mph emergency stop, if they are fitted with more powerful air chambers and larger friction material."
Makes sense to me. The big performance advantage discs have over drums is fade resistance, not emergency stopping power. I've driven 4-wheel drum cars in hills enough to know what fading is like <8^O
Mike
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Michael Pardee wrote:

As one that has been driving automobiles for over fifty years, I concur with your statement.
But the biggest factor regarding safety is usually the nut behind the wheel and all the advances in technology cannot defeat stupidity.
Defensive driving is what it's all about...
JT
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Oh, yeah. Backing off 5 mph on speed has wonderful effects on both the time available for reaction and on stopping distance... not to mention maneuvering stability. And just listening to that voice that says, "hey... what's happening there?" is a lifesaver.
Mike
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wrote:

No, it's *not* the same thing.

Have you tried it? The best systems are the ones that allow some sideways movement *cough* and bring you back into line gently and without slapping your wrists.
BMW manage it, at least in the UK.
Mercedes, Lexus - don't. Indeed I believe the Mercedes car rings your mother to tell you how naughty you've been...

EBD takes over where the rear brake force valve left off. It compensates for weight in the car and allows greater rear braking effort, which can and does shorten stopping distances. One of the great compromises in car design is how to set up the brakes. For optimum braking, the valve that reduces rear braking effort should be set such that all four wheels are at the point of locking up at the same time with the same pedal effort from the driver. Manual systems are set up to be close to this (with a margin for error) when the car is one up, with some standardised conditions such as weather, tyre design and pressure. When you're five up plus luggage, the rear wheels could be braked rather more so.
EBD takes care of this for you. It also takes care of unusual pressure differences, say, a front tyre being low in pressure and / or a rear being unusually high in pressure.

No, it doesn't quite work like this. They are set up very well. It monitors what you're doing and if it thinks you really mean to stop quicker than you are doing so, it takes over.
If you accelerate firmly and then punch the brake pedal, it increases the force applied. That combined with ABS and EBD can make the difference between hitting the child that runs out in front of you and not.
99.9% of people, 99.9% of the time, won't trigger EBA.

Different bulbs, different reflectors...

That may depend on where you live and how the car is driven. Driven five up in hilly terrain I can see how you'd want the greatest safety margin possible.

I can see their use. Personally, I'd get somebody else to pay for them, and I'd buy the car used.
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On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 07:33:04 GMT, "DervMan"

It's the implementation of some of these systems that I'm not sure about.
Ideally, I'd like for the car to wait for some slippage to occur before taking action. If it automatically jumps in based on settings from the factory and OE tires, shocks, suspension, etc., I think that could be undesirable.
If it waited for an error condition to occur, then you could upgrade various things to improve cornering ability, and the system wouldn't cut you off based upon the abilities of the stock setup.

News you can use. I didn't know where it focused most of its efforts.

Thanks for this analysis!

What I have read is that in emergency braking situations, the average / untrained driver starts out by first not applying enough pedal pressure (underbraking) and then later in the stopping sequence when they're really scared they overcompensate in the other direction (overbraking).
Ideally you would like optimal braking from start to finish of the braking event.
http://tinyurl.com/mn9ry
The vehicle has sensors to determine the emergency braking situation, and boosts breaking effort at the front end of the event for the shortest possible stopping distance.

And the wife gets an $11 insurance discount every six months for having DRL on her Subaru ...

Well, here's an interesting discovery for me. Beginning in 2007, Honda includes so many of these features standard that the single "VS" (vehicle stability / traction) option for $650 gets you EVERYTHING.
I'm going to post a Camrey LE vs Honda EX comparison because for the money, if safety is important, I think it's provocative. +-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+
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wrote:

That's the only way it can work. It's based on an ECU and a bunch of sensors.

Erm... well yes. Stability protection cannot assume you're using standard suspension and tyres on a dry road surface. If you replace your tyres for el cheapo ones, it doesn't need to be told, it figures it out by itself. :-)
Try this page on my website: www.dervman.com/eskid.htm (I think that's the direct link).

<grins>
Goodo!
Spot on. Experienced drivers do it to. It's very hard to apply the right amount of pressure when faced with a "oh-oh" situation...

Hehehehe. Nice.

Yes, but for 99% of drivers, 99% of the time, airbags, stability protection, ABS, EBD and EBA is additional weight and cost. Sure, when needed it's great. I can only think of one occasion when ABS was genuinely useful in helping me avoid something under heavy braking. It doesn't help me stop, it allows some steering control when braking hard... but it doesn't prevent a skid if you brake and steer at the same time.
Traction control is the same. You can still wheelspin with traction control.
Those cars I've driven with stability protection, they vary. BMWs allow some oversteery antics. Mercedes don't. But you can still skid off the road.
Airbags? This Accord (waves to Accord sat outside the house) has four airbags (and a broken SRS module but that's something else). My last machine was written off (www.dervman.com/kd57.htm) and the airbags were not needed, thus not used. They sat in their housing for nearly five years and when the car was lunched into a roll then hit the kerb, they didn't deploy...
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wrote:

Nice clear explanation. Thanks.

(should have said '07 TOYOTA)

Like fire insurance ...
It's got everything to do with how risk-averse you are, how lucky you feel, how often you do stupid things on the road, etc.
I'm only too happy to make a modest investment that might one day save me from my own stupidity, and just as happy when those same safety systems are never employed.
I'm especially happy to have them so that I can also be protected from the stupidity of other drivers, too distracted by cell phones to stop for stop signs or traffic signals.
A few years ago I was driving around Providence in a 25 MPH zone and approaching an intersection where the cross street traffic had to stop and I did not.
Just before I entered the intersection a driver flashed thru it from my left doing at least 45 MPH. The 1990 van I was driving had NO airbags and would not have been able to avoid the accident if I had gotten there a couple of seconds sooner. If the situation repeats itself and I'm not so lucky next time, I REALLY want the extra protection!

The first car I had with 4-wheel disc and ABS was a Nissan NX-2000. It was a cute little red car, and occasionally my wife drove it. One day a truck blew through an intersection and she had to stand on the brakes and swerve all over the place to avoid being hit. But she did it, largely because of that hammering under the brake pedal combined with the excellent maneuverability of that little sports car.

The fool is always greater than the proof. +-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+
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To a degree... or perhaps how much stupidity you see on the roads instead, heh.

*cough* :)
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Charles Lasitter wrote:

The new Camry has all these features as either standard or as a stand-alone option (traction control/stability control is not in a bundle). That should force Honda to do the same with the next Accord. Honda will probably make all that stuff standard across the Accord lineup.
I wonder whether or not Honda will offer AWD on the next Accord. I'd be surprised if AWD isn't offered on the next TL (all TL competitors offer AWD) and since the Accord and TL share a platform...
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On 21 Apr 2006 05:26:25 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

I have to say a big THANK YOU for pointing this out.
With the Camry SE it looks like you get a lot stock and a lot more with one optional package. I can't tell for sure, but it looks like the '05 LX came with some air bags that you had to buy as an option with the '06 Camry SE. Otherwise ....
Added "no charge" (mostly safety) features over '05 LX:
solid rear disc brakes (vs drum) daytime running lights electronic brakeforce distribution dusk sensing headlamps tire pressure monitoring front fog/driving lights
With the "UG" VSC & Side Airbag Package ($1,300 list)
Vehicle stability control traction control brake assist
And the addition of these airbags, which I don't know quite how to compare to the stock '05 Honda:
front side airbags front and rear curtain airbags.

Lets hope! +-----------------------------------------+ | Charles Lasitter | Mailing/Shipping | | 401/728-1987 | 14 Cooke St | | cl+at+ncdm+dot+com | Pawtucket RI 02860 | +-----------------------------------------+
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Charles Lasitter wrote:

The SE is a pretty nice unit. I test drove one a few days ago. The new Camry nose is damn ugly, but the black-out grill on the SE even helps a little with that. In the end I bought an Acura TSX this time around, partly because Toyota dealers are still very proud of their new Camry (high prices).
I also checked out the latest Toyota Navigation system in the '07 Camry and it seemed very well done indeed. In fact, it is the only one I have seen which is as good as or even better than the latest Honda/Acura Navi sytems.
Ever since getting Navi on my '03 Accord it has become something of a must-have feature for a new vehicle purchase. My wife liked my Accord so much that she insisted I give it to her and get myself something else :).
John
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John Horner wrote:

i think that has to do with "pedestrian safety", big in europe.
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I still maintain that PAR would be much prettier... pedestrian avoidance radar... :-)
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DervMan wrote:

Pah, let's just use the low tech cowcatcher. Worked on the RR's for decades.
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