My Si has a DX motor!

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Dave Garrett wrote:


that's b.s. the only way this happens is either if the car is crashed/stolen parted out, then later rebuilt again with the cheap motor, or the d16 blew and a cheapo d15 block was used as replacement. whatever the deal, it's /way/ too late to do anything about the person that did the work. if you want you can get d16's as jdm replacements for not an incredible amount of money. depending on local emissions laws, you can maybe get away with a zc motor - some of those are sweet - cheap too.
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snipped-for-privacy@bad.example.net says...

I thought it sounded like BS at the time too. I don't know enough about the details of the differences between the two engines - do they use the same block, or is it significantly different?
And yeah, I'm certainly not expecting to have any recourse at this late date other than never patronizing that dealer again. If I'm going to do a swap, I'm inclined to go for a B16 for a significant power boost. But as you're probably well aware, a B16 transplant isn't nearly as easy a bolt-in as a ZC - off the top of my head, you need new motor mounts, new axles, a wiring subharness to connect the VTEC controller, a new ECU, a new gauge cluster, and a new AC bracket (where I live, not having AC in the summer is a significant problem, so I need to keep it functioning). That's probably at least $2K in parts before you even get started on the labor to install everything. Hence my earlier comment about trying to find another CRX that's already had a B16 professionally installed.
Dave
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Dave Garrett wrote:

i don't do rebuilds so i don't know for sure, but afaik, the blocks and heads are identical. the crank is slightly longer stroke [to give the extra few cc's of capacity] and the cam is a little more punchy, but other than that, they're the same.

are you sure?

are you sure?

yes & yes.

not if you use a cable transmission.

define "professional"! if you've had this crx for a while and know its history, stick with it. otherwise you have no idea what you're getting into. the most important thing is to find someone to do the swap that's not going to rip you. by the sound of it, half the stuff you've just mentioned is coming from a source that's trying to set you up to put their kids through college.
find out if the zc will pass your local emissions laws, then do the zc swap. that motor is cheap, hella fast [160hp from a 1600 motor], and a straight bolt-in. then you can keep everything else. and be careful who you ask!!! talk with a smog person. here in ca, we have "test only" stations that are forbidden to do work on the vehicles so have no interest in trying to sell you on stuff you don't need. my local guy is a honda fan and was delighted to me about what i can and can't do for egr systems if i want to do mods without getting the vehicle refereed.
one last thing: if you want to be cheap, just get the si cam and swap it into your d15. you're only losing 97cc's. you could probably do that yourself. better yet, get an hot aftermarket cam. no problems with a/c, vtec, transmission, mounts, etc., etc. do it with the engine still in the car.
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snipped-for-privacy@bad.example.net says...

That's what I was wondering, if the block was the same and the longer stroke was from a different crank. Thanks for confirming that.

Well, I haven't talked to anyone yet about doing this, I'm just at the point of doing research online to see what's involved. Most of the swap sites I've looked at state that new motor mounts are required to plug a B16 into a CRX, and the favored choice seems to be Hasport. As far as axles, again, given the significant power increase, I've not seen too many recommendations for using the D16/D15 axles, and I was also under the impression that they didn't bolt directly up to a B16.
But yeah, your point about "professional" is well-taken - there's no real way to know if modifications of this sort were done correctly unless you've done them yourself or you have a shop you can implicitly trust to do the job you ask them to do without screwing you over. I'm definitely not interested in building a show car, or trying to squeeze as much power as possible out of a setup that spends more time being tuned and repaired than being driven. I'm more interested in building the CRX that it seems like Honda everywhere but in the US, namely, a naturally-aspirated, B16-powered one with somewhere between 160-200hp that will be driven daily. However...

Again, good points. A ZC would certainly be easier, and a lot cheaper, but I assume you're talking about a tuned one? I've never heard of a stock ZC with 160hp. I'm in Texas, so the smog laws are not nearly as much of an issue as they are in CA.
I'm still wondering exactly what it is that I have under the hood in my car - it's starting to sound like someone blew the original 1.6 motor and either swapped in a D15 or used a D15 block and crank with perhaps some D16 internals to get it running again.
Thanks for the advice - maybe I'll start with a ZC swap and see how long it takes me to get bored with that. :-)
Dave
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Dave Garrett wrote:

i haven't done a b16 swap so am not an authority, but some of the motor mount stuff is more to do with having the lump anchored more firmly rather than /needing/ to do it for positioning. if you can, check honda part numbers and compare.

on some of the hybrids, there can be shaft length differences which necessitate different shafts - don't get suckered into the need to do it for the extra power thing. /any/ stock shaft the right size will do the job - the question is, how long it lasts. unless you're racing all the time, stock shafts will be fine.

zc. twin overhead cam. http://www.nippon-motors.com/honda.htm google for others. getting 200hp out of a 1.6 is hard work and i'm not aware of any stock solutions that do that. custom solutions and/or turbos will cost you, but they'll do the job. and if power is what you want, why stop at 200hp? http://www.theoldone.com/articles/badtothebone /

ok, maybe i was confusing it with some of the b16's...

zc!
that's a lot of work - they probably just threw in the d15 - as is indicated by the timing belt.

if you're going to go fast, consider your ability to stop appropriately, especially if the lump is heavier. integra calipers/10.25" brake disks are bolt-on, and the 15/16" master cylinder and larger brake booster from the 90-91 civic ex has the extra volume necessary for the bigger front pistons with no brake line bending.
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snipped-for-privacy@bad.example.net says...

There are plenty out there - I've read positive comments about these folks as well - http://www.hmotorsonline.com /

Yeah, I was thinking of B18s re: 200hp - the B16s are usually around 160.
I thought that link looked familiar, it's the same dude with the "Larry's Civic" page. Looks like really top-notch work, but until I win the lottery, I'll probably stick with something considerably less exotic.

ZCs seem to be around 130, but some people think that number is understated.

Definitely. I've never been too happy with the stock brakes with the current engine, so I'd probably do a brake upgrade at the same time as the engine swap.
Dave
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Dave Garrett wrote: <snip>

do you use oem pads or aftermarket? my experience with aftermarket pads is very poor - bad wear, bad fade, poor stopping power... now i use oem and am very happy. and this opinion was recently re-reinforced by my new crx that has aftermarket pads - just doesn't stop like it should.
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snipped-for-privacy@bad.example.net says...

I've used both in the past, but I just had the brakes redone several weeks ago, and OEM pads were used. Had to have the brake booster replaced last year when it failed catastrophically (that was exciting, as it happened on the freeway), and the master cylinder was replaced prior to that. I'm thinking about installing braided stainless lines to see if that improves things, but will probably wind up converting to 'teg brakes sooner or later.
Dave
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awwwwwwwww the poor dealers..... ;)
Tegger wrote:

--
Message posted via http://www.carkb.com


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Well, I doubt any dealers check every used car they sell to ensure that it's got the right engine, any more than private buyers do. I tried to buy a used Sentra SER from the local Nissan dealer, and they couldn't tell me whther that car had ABS or not. They were pretty sure it had disk brakes though; they gleaned this info from the chrome circle impressed into the brake pedal.
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Oddly, it may be that way from the factory. There is nothing unusual about smaller components being substituted - why not engines? Okay, sometimes specific engines are offered as extra cost options, and in that case it would be fraudulent to supply a motor that wasn't what the buyer paid for. Otherwise, if the purchase contract didn't specify the engine there isn't a strict legal issue, is there? (I am not a lawyer.)
I recall a while back a commotion about Oldsmobile engines being used in Cadillacs. I don't know if anything came of that.
Mike
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On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 04:44:24 -0700, Michael Pardee wrote:

If you're not getting the larger engine, you're not getting an Si. The Si is the performance package.
If I would have found a 1.6L under the hood of my Si, instead of the 2.0L it is advertised as, you can damn well believe the car would have been back at the dealer right away.
This person doesn't have such recourse, likely, due to the age of the car, and the time since it was purchased, but I'd still be mad as hell.
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says...

I don't think it's a case of simply rebadging a DX as an Si, unless someone grafted all of the Si suspension and braking upgrades on as well - Sis had 4-wheel discs in 1990, and AFAIK 4-wheel discs were unique to the Si in the CRX model range.
And yeah, to say that I'm a bit chapped is probably an understatement. This should've been disclosed by the dealer.
Dave
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Dave Garrett wrote:

it in good faith, then it may not be their fault. just looking under the hood doesn't tell you what the motor is - the externals are identical.
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Um, no, you should have opened the hood and looked and known exactly what you were buying.
The used car dealer's job is merely to present the car to you. It's not his job to be your friend, hold your hand, and look out for your best interests. You're on your own.
That's not meant to be mean; it's simply reality. It's time you owned up to the fact that you live in reality.
Did you do a carfax? What did it say?
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snipped-for-privacy@nastydesigns.com says...

As I said in my first post, it's entirely possible the dealer had no idea about this - as jimbeam said, it's difficult to tell the difference between the two engines externally. I'll admit there's no way of knowing now, and so some of my previous comments were probably ill-advised; I shouldn't be accusing the dealer of bad faith without proof.
What I have a problem with is *if* the dealer knew, and knowingly misrepresented the car as an Si when it did not have an Si engine. I'm well aware that in "reality", used car dealers screw customers every day.
Dave
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Best case, the dealer has a system that matches the VIN with the car's configuration from the factory. That's all he knows.
Car dealers aren't experts on cars. They're experts on getting people onto the lot and to buy cars.
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On 1/25/07 9:28 PM, in article MPG.2023314d9ff46f5098a15f@207.14.116.130,

So, to make sure I understand this: You have owned this car for ** 15 ** years and just now you find out it doesn't have the engine you thought it had and you are all bent out of shape about it? I assume you test drove it **15** years ago and were satisfied with the power it had before you bought it?
Edmunds.com lists the current trade-in value of a 1990 CRX Si at $704. Changing the engine would cost more than the car is worth and result in a car that is still 17 years old and isn't worth any more than $704.
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E Meyer wrote:

at $704 and tell me how many calls you get on it. your phone will ring off the hook for months afterwards. $704? that's a complete joke - i don't care /what/ edmunds say.
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jim beam wrote:

Hell, even my '82 Civic beater has a low retail of over $1K.
OTOH, how can someone have a car for that long and not be aware of what exactly is in it???
JT
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