that's b.s. the only way this happens is either if the car is
crashed/stolen parted out, then later rebuilt again with the cheap
motor, or the d16 blew and a cheapo d15 block was used as replacement.
whatever the deal, it's /way/ too late to do anything about the person
that did the work. if you want you can get d16's as jdm replacements
for not an incredible amount of money. depending on local emissions
laws, you can maybe get away with a zc motor - some of those are sweet -
I thought it sounded like BS at the time too. I don't know enough about
the details of the differences between the two engines - do they use the
same block, or is it significantly different?
And yeah, I'm certainly not expecting to have any recourse at this late
date other than never patronizing that dealer again. If I'm going to do
a swap, I'm inclined to go for a B16 for a significant power boost. But
as you're probably well aware, a B16 transplant isn't nearly as easy a
bolt-in as a ZC - off the top of my head, you need new motor mounts, new
axles, a wiring subharness to connect the VTEC controller, a new ECU, a
new gauge cluster, and a new AC bracket (where I live, not having AC in
the summer is a significant problem, so I need to keep it functioning).
That's probably at least $2K in parts before you even get started on the
labor to install everything. Hence my earlier comment about trying to
find another CRX that's already had a B16 professionally installed.
i don't do rebuilds so i don't know for sure, but afaik, the blocks and
heads are identical. the crank is slightly longer stroke [to give the
extra few cc's of capacity] and the cam is a little more punchy, but
other than that, they're the same.
are you sure?
are you sure?
yes & yes.
not if you use a cable transmission.
define "professional"! if you've had this crx for a while and know its
history, stick with it. otherwise you have no idea what you're getting
into. the most important thing is to find someone to do the swap that's
not going to rip you. by the sound of it, half the stuff you've just
mentioned is coming from a source that's trying to set you up to put
their kids through college.
find out if the zc will pass your local emissions laws, then do the zc
swap. that motor is cheap, hella fast [160hp from a 1600 motor], and a
straight bolt-in. then you can keep everything else. and be careful
who you ask!!! talk with a smog person. here in ca, we have "test
only" stations that are forbidden to do work on the vehicles so have no
interest in trying to sell you on stuff you don't need. my local guy is
a honda fan and was delighted to me about what i can and can't do for
egr systems if i want to do mods without getting the vehicle refereed.
one last thing: if you want to be cheap, just get the si cam and swap it
into your d15. you're only losing 97cc's. you could probably do that
yourself. better yet, get an hot aftermarket cam. no problems with
a/c, vtec, transmission, mounts, etc., etc. do it with the engine still
in the car.
That's what I was wondering, if the block was the same and the longer
stroke was from a different crank. Thanks for confirming that.
Well, I haven't talked to anyone yet about doing this, I'm just at the
point of doing research online to see what's involved. Most of the swap
sites I've looked at state that new motor mounts are required to plug a
B16 into a CRX, and the favored choice seems to be Hasport. As far as
axles, again, given the significant power increase, I've not seen too
many recommendations for using the D16/D15 axles, and I was also under
the impression that they didn't bolt directly up to a B16.
But yeah, your point about "professional" is well-taken - there's no
real way to know if modifications of this sort were done correctly
unless you've done them yourself or you have a shop you can implicitly
trust to do the job you ask them to do without screwing you over. I'm
definitely not interested in building a show car, or trying to squeeze
as much power as possible out of a setup that spends more time being
tuned and repaired than being driven. I'm more interested in building
the CRX that it seems like Honda everywhere but in the US, namely, a
naturally-aspirated, B16-powered one with somewhere between 160-200hp
that will be driven daily. However...
Again, good points. A ZC would certainly be easier, and a lot cheaper,
but I assume you're talking about a tuned one? I've never heard of a
stock ZC with 160hp. I'm in Texas, so the smog laws are not nearly as
much of an issue as they are in CA.
I'm still wondering exactly what it is that I have under the hood in my
car - it's starting to sound like someone blew the original 1.6 motor
and either swapped in a D15 or used a D15 block and crank with perhaps
some D16 internals to get it running again.
Thanks for the advice - maybe I'll start with a ZC swap and see how long
it takes me to get bored with that. :-)
i haven't done a b16 swap so am not an authority, but some of the motor
mount stuff is more to do with having the lump anchored more firmly
rather than /needing/ to do it for positioning. if you can, check honda
part numbers and compare.
on some of the hybrids, there can be shaft length differences which
necessitate different shafts - don't get suckered into the need to do it
for the extra power thing. /any/ stock shaft the right size will do the
job - the question is, how long it lasts. unless you're racing all the
time, stock shafts will be fine.
zc. twin overhead cam.
google for others.
getting 200hp out of a 1.6 is hard work and i'm not aware of any stock
solutions that do that. custom solutions and/or turbos will cost you,
but they'll do the job. and if power is what you want, why stop at 200hp?
ok, maybe i was confusing it with some of the b16's...
that's a lot of work - they probably just threw in the d15 - as is
indicated by the timing belt.
if you're going to go fast, consider your ability to stop appropriately,
especially if the lump is heavier. integra calipers/10.25" brake disks
are bolt-on, and the 15/16" master cylinder and larger brake booster
from the 90-91 civic ex has the extra volume necessary for the bigger
front pistons with no brake line bending.
There are plenty out there - I've read positive comments about these
folks as well - http://www.hmotorsonline.com /
Yeah, I was thinking of B18s re: 200hp - the B16s are usually around
I thought that link looked familiar, it's the same dude with the
"Larry's Civic" page. Looks like really top-notch work, but until I win
the lottery, I'll probably stick with something considerably less
ZCs seem to be around 130, but some people think that number is understated.
Definitely. I've never been too happy with the stock brakes with the
current engine, so I'd probably do a brake upgrade at the same time as
the engine swap.
do you use oem pads or aftermarket? my experience with aftermarket pads
is very poor - bad wear, bad fade, poor stopping power... now i use oem
and am very happy. and this opinion was recently re-reinforced by my
new crx that has aftermarket pads - just doesn't stop like it should.
I've used both in the past, but I just had the brakes redone several
weeks ago, and OEM pads were used. Had to have the brake booster
replaced last year when it failed catastrophically (that was exciting,
as it happened on the freeway), and the master cylinder was replaced
prior to that. I'm thinking about installing braided stainless lines to
see if that improves things, but will probably wind up converting to
'teg brakes sooner or later.
Well, I doubt any dealers check every used car they sell to ensure
that it's got the right engine, any more than private buyers do. I
tried to buy a used Sentra SER from the local Nissan dealer, and they
couldn't tell me whther that car had ABS or not. They were pretty sure
it had disk brakes though; they gleaned this info from the chrome
circle impressed into the brake pedal.
Oddly, it may be that way from the factory. There is nothing unusual about
smaller components being substituted - why not engines? Okay, sometimes
specific engines are offered as extra cost options, and in that case it
would be fraudulent to supply a motor that wasn't what the buyer paid for.
Otherwise, if the purchase contract didn't specify the engine there isn't a
strict legal issue, is there? (I am not a lawyer.)
I recall a while back a commotion about Oldsmobile engines being used in
Cadillacs. I don't know if anything came of that.
On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 04:44:24 -0700, Michael Pardee wrote:
If you're not getting the larger engine, you're not getting an Si. The Si
is the performance package.
If I would have found a 1.6L under the hood of my Si, instead of the 2.0L
it is advertised as, you can damn well believe the car would have been
back at the dealer right away.
This person doesn't have such recourse, likely, due to the age of the car,
and the time since it was purchased, but I'd still be mad as hell.
I don't think it's a case of simply rebadging a DX as an Si, unless
someone grafted all of the Si suspension and braking upgrades on as well
- Sis had 4-wheel discs in 1990, and AFAIK 4-wheel discs were unique to
the Si in the CRX model range.
And yeah, to say that I'm a bit chapped is probably an understatement.
This should've been disclosed by the dealer.
Um, no, you should have opened the hood and looked and known exactly
what you were buying.
The used car dealer's job is merely to present the car to you. It's not
his job to be your friend, hold your hand, and look out for your best
interests. You're on your own.
That's not meant to be mean; it's simply reality. It's time you owned
up to the fact that you live in reality.
Did you do a carfax? What did it say?
As I said in my first post, it's entirely possible the dealer had no
idea about this - as jimbeam said, it's difficult to tell the difference
between the two engines externally. I'll admit there's no way of knowing
now, and so some of my previous comments were probably ill-advised; I
shouldn't be accusing the dealer of bad faith without proof.
What I have a problem with is *if* the dealer knew, and knowingly
misrepresented the car as an Si when it did not have an Si engine. I'm
well aware that in "reality", used car dealers screw customers every
Best case, the dealer has a system that matches the VIN with the car's
configuration from the factory. That's all he knows.
Car dealers aren't experts on cars. They're experts on getting people
onto the lot and to buy cars.
On 1/25/07 9:28 PM, in article MPG.email@example.com,
So, to make sure I understand this: You have owned this car for ** 15 **
years and just now you find out it doesn't have the engine you thought it
had and you are all bent out of shape about it? I assume you test drove it
**15** years ago and were satisfied with the power it had before you bought
Edmunds.com lists the current trade-in value of a 1990 CRX Si at $704.
Changing the engine would cost more than the car is worth and result in a
car that is still 17 years old and isn't worth any more than $704.
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