Psychic Wednesday???

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Some people are slow.
Some people eventually catch on.
Some people won't admit it though.
Some people will, that is when forced to.
Accidently tuned in to Montel and yep, Wednesday is psychic awright.
Now... What can one do about a crank pulley bolt that's snapped off?
No, I didn't do it!
Yes, I inherited the engine (which appears to be good otherwise on strip down).
TIA
JT
(Dreading a trip to the machine shop...)
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Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise with a sharp drift and a hammer.
With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway,
--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
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Isn't this counter to the theory (among some of us) that it's rust and debris etc. that result in the ridiculous torque often required to break the pulley bolt free?
That is, I thought you for one strongly felt the pulley bolt was not actually in tension to the tune of some 500 ft-lbs. of torque (on some Hondas)?
I am not as optimistic that this will come out easily without a lot of drilling.
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Elle wrote:

Well, yes and no.
From the factory, I would assume that the bolt is tightened to spec which (to me) shouldn't be much more than 150 psi. I only tighten the (much larger) bolt on my Studebakers to 75 psi and have never lost one. Trash and debris would only be a factor if the bolt was removed and re-installed carelessly after the car was delivered.

Not me - See above.

If it's gonna come out, it'll be this evening. If it doesn't, I'll let the machine shop tackle it.
JT
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E

What's your theory on why Honda automobile pulley bolts are notoriously tight when it comes time to change the timing belt?
What year and make is this Honda, anyway?

Be careful, darling older, smarter honda-luvin' brother.
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Elle wrote:

The engine is the original that was in the '83 Civic FE. If you recall, I replaced it with a running motah out of an '81 DX but used all the '83 accessories and attachments.

If it's gonna come out, it will do so easy. Otherwise, the whole schmeer will go to the machine shop next week.
JT
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wrote

There's no "theory" involved.
The cause is simple embedment.
Not only have I been told this by engineers whose specialty is fasteners, but HONDA SAYS SO, TOO: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/hsn_feb-93.pdf
--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
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We already went over this, and the guy was not absolutely sure.

This only says two to three times the installation torque may be required to remove the bolt, not why.
I am not rejecting the theory. I am saying I don't know for sure the cause.
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It says the reason is the bolt sticks to the crankshaft threads. That's "embedment".
It's not a "theory", but established fact, and a well-known phenomenon.
--
Tegger

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wrote

at least SOME of the torque will no longer be needed,with compression gone form the assembly. (I'm not optimistic,either;it seems nothing is ever "easy" when working on older cars.)
--
Jim Yanik
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I'd have to think about it more. If it is debris, rust, heat cycling, etc. that causes adhesion over time between the male and female threads, it's a pseudo-torque that's been applied to the bolt. It's like a bolt was tightened to spec //and then// locktite somehow dripped on its threads. If the head shears off, is the torque required to deal with the locktite really going to be less? Not sure.
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Jim Yanik wrote:

It always seems to be that last bolt or fasterner...
<grrrrr>
JT
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Tegger wrote:

-----------------------
At least that's true if Mr LockTite wasn't hanging around.
'Curly'
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Ooh. That could complicate things.
However...an air chisel will still drive it around very nicely even if corroded. Any garage with air tools should be able to do this for you. Unless it's really caked up, the air chisel should spin it off in seconds.

Check the crank bearings. Excessive wear will allow the pistons to travel too far upwards.
IF the pistons are contacting the valves, the valves will almost certainly be bent.
--
Tegger

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Tegger wrote:

It twisted off deep in the recess and it was a "no go" with the centerpunch technique. I'll drop the shaft off to the machine shop next week.

I don't think so in this case as the engine had only 110K and there is no detectable ridge at the top of the cylinders. In fact, even sanding down the rust with 80 grit doesn't seem to hurt the cylinder walls. That puppy might get by with a honing and new rings/rod bearings.

I have the head which was supposedly rebuilt. Maybe I should send you some pix of the piston tops. I've never run into the valve/piston fracas when a timing belt snaps.
JT
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Broke off too deep to be able to get a good run at it, I guess?

I'd like to see the recesses you mention.

I haven't, personally, either. I have personally known of two Honda engines that suffered no damage when the belt broke (Civic and CR-V).
--
Tegger

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Tegger wrote:

Not so much that but it's not budging. I'm simply distorting what's left even more.
In my earlier days, I would have found out exactly what the dimensions of the shank minus thread were, got a drill bit slightly smaller and attempted to drill it out and retap (clean the threads) myself. But I'm far too lazy to do that now.
I suspect that the crank itself is fine and within tolerance for a new set of standard bearings. I'll send a pix of the piston tops later today.
JT
(Now if this was the Studebaker group, I'd just post 'em right here..)
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Tegger wrote:

I pulled the pistons today complete with rods. I'll take a pix in the morning and send 'em to you but it sure looks like factory to me.
Interesting note. All of the top rings were stuck which is not to be unexpected since this thing say with the head off of it for over ten years. It seems that the top compression rings are "thinner" than the second ring. IOW, the second ring will not fit into the top groove. I find this very strange. Have you heard of such?
JT
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Just to bring y'all up to date, Tegger and I did some off line conversing and it appears that 1982/83 1300 engines did have two different compression ring thickness as follows: Top ring - 1mm and 2nd ring - 1.2mm.
Called Majestic and while they are available, they are on back order so who knows how long. Fortunately, found a set on eBay that specified the above dimensions and snagged 'em for $50 including shipping and insurance.
Needless to say, my big overhaul project scheduled for last Saturday got pushed back but as soon as the rings come in, I'll hopefully be back on (some sort of) schedule.
The scheme is to use the pistons/rods out of the '83 which is a five speed with 110K and put them into the $200 '82 bare bones Civic wonder that has nearly zero compression on #1 and sucks up about a quart of oil per 200 miles. One guy whined that I killed all his mosquitoes and I just replied, "No Charge!"
The second part is to rehab the original FE engine with new pistons, rings and bearings and eventually reinstall it into that car. Then the '81 engine can be resealed and held as a spare on standby should the worst happen...
JT
(Who refuses to enter the 21st century regarding transportation...)
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It's a little spooky for obvious reasons, but when I had trouble with an alternator support bolt breaking off recessed in my really old Volvo (don't ask) I had success epoxying a nut to the end of the bolt. I prepped the location by spraying with brake cleaner. I put a dab of quick set epoxy putty in the center of the nut and left it extending out a bit, then pressed it into place and held it there a few minutes. I did let it set overnight before putting a wrench on it, though. Easy does it!
Short of that you can try duct tape on the back of a socket to fit in the hole, but I never got enough traction with that. Never tried a left-hand drill.
Mike
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