Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna

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dbu, 7/17/2008,5:54:16 AM, wrote:

This is hard for me to believe.
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Hard for the EPA to believe, too... ;-)
18/23 City/Hwy
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I tell truth. I don't care what EPA says. I've had vehicles where the EPA says I should get 16/19 and I got much worse.
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wrote:

It may get that on a long trip, but for day-to-day driving...
From Consumer guide Automotive
Forget the EPA. Consumer Guide's auto editors drove 150,000 miles last year. We drove to work, to day care, to the grocery store, and on vacation. We drove through record heat, blinding snow, driving rain, and confounding road construction, keeping track of every drop of fuel we used along the way.
The EPA admits its fuel economy numbers are estimates. Our numbers are real. A typical Consumer Guide test car is evaluated by at least four editors, all of whom account for their individual fuel usage. Here are the vehicles in each class that used the least amount of fuel while in our care.
Honda Odyssey-16.4 MPG
Toyota Sienna-16.4 MPG
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2008-fuel-economy-champions.htm
Consumer Reports faired a little better with 19 MPG.
As one poster noted about the Odyssey
"my normal gas mileage is 17 mpg in the city and 24.5-25 mpg on the highway. I've gotten as low as 15 mpg in the winter here (10% ethanol fuel) and as high as 27.1 mpg on the highway (traveling by myself with just two suitcases). I keep my tires at 37 psi, which is what made my gas mileage increase by 1-2 mpg."
Another noted about his Sienna " I drive 80MPH and still get 24 MPG" which I will dismiss as total BS.
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In article

Again, those numbers are way off from what I get and what my friends Ody gets.

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If one owns a vehicle that has an onboard fuel computer you will discover they most efficient speed to drive is around 70 MPH, not 60 MPH. At 75 it is only a mile or two less but still two or three more than when I drive 55 MPH.
wrote:

It may get that on a long trip, but for day-to-day driving...
From Consumer guide Automotive
Forget the EPA. Consumer Guide's auto editors drove 150,000 miles last year. We drove to work, to day care, to the grocery store, and on vacation. We drove through record heat, blinding snow, driving rain, and confounding road construction, keeping track of every drop of fuel we used along the way.
The EPA admits its fuel economy numbers are estimates. Our numbers are real. A typical Consumer Guide test car is evaluated by at least four editors, all of whom account for their individual fuel usage. Here are the vehicles in each class that used the least amount of fuel while in our care.
Honda Odyssey-16.4 MPG
Toyota Sienna-16.4 MPG
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2008-fuel-economy-champions.htm
Consumer Reports faired a little better with 19 MPG.
As one poster noted about the Odyssey
"my normal gas mileage is 17 mpg in the city and 24.5-25 mpg on the highway. I've gotten as low as 15 mpg in the winter here (10% ethanol fuel) and as high as 27.1 mpg on the highway (traveling by myself with just two suitcases). I keep my tires at 37 psi, which is what made my gas mileage increase by 1-2 mpg."
Another noted about his Sienna " I drive 80MPH and still get 24 MPG" which I will dismiss as total BS.
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That's not what I'm getting. I own and drive a Sienna and I calculate over a number of trips my gas mileage. If anyone chooses to not believe me, fine, I don't care. I know what I get in gas mileage and that is all that matters to me. My friend who has a 08 Ody gets even better gas mileage and he is conservative and flat honest, if he didn't get what he gets he would say so.

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wrote:

Howdy,
Let me add something to the mix...
I have an '04 Sienna AWD. I live in rural New Hampshire and so do very little stop-and-go driving.
In the four years I have had the van, I have never gotten better than 18 mpg, and I have a light foot.
The simple reality is that as is true for any manufactured product there are variations part to part, and they may have a cumulative effect.
I don't doubt for a moment that there are folks who get far better mileage in what is ostensibly the identical car.
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18 Is damn good for AWD.
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"Kenneth" ...

AWD in itself saps MPG. That invalidates a comparison to non-AWD Siennas.
BTW, I get about 22 in my 98 Sienna in semi rural west central NJ driving. Tomes
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My Odyssey has a onboard computer that I verify every fill up. It gets 17 around city. Never better around town. End I have the more efficient engine that turns off 3 cylinders during coasting. I believe they may have a new version that can turn off 4 cyclinders in the Accord. Not sure if it is in the Odyssey though.

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Art wrote:

/all/ modern fuel injected cars turn of /all/ cylinders when coasting.
it's /some/ cars that turn off cylinders when /cruising/.

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On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:44:20 -0700, jim beam

snip
Mind explaining what you mean? By coasting do you mean rolling with the gear shift in neutral? If that is what you mean is engine cut out in this condition a requirement of North American autos as it certainly isn't so for European vehicles. In Europe it is becoming increasingly common for modern vehicles to stop the engine when at rest and for the engine to restart when the gas pedal (accelerator) is depressed.
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Edward W. Thompson wrote:

no, coasting is when the momentum of the vehicle pushes against the engine and turns it even when you have your foot off the gas, like descending a hill or slowing to a stop.

no, it's for all electronic fuel injection vehicles, globally. the forward energy of the vehicle is rotating the engine - there's no point injecting gas when the motor's just pumping air coasting.

that's not coasting.
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Uh boy, another topic introduced! ;-)
Re: the regular/super debate - here in NJ, we have regular (87), plus (89) and super (91/93). My Audi A4 turbo requires "super" - 91 octane - although I have run it with no issues on 89. My wife actually filled it with regular (87) once and it definitely was down on power. Don't recall the gas mileage (although I have it in my log). I can imagine some small towns (which is where I assume dbu lives) which don't carry all 3 grades. I've seen that in Maine, but if they have 87 and 89, it's still labeled 'regular' and 'plus', not 'super' for 89. And who uses 'Super' for their lawnmowers, etc?? I use the cheapest crap I can find, just like for the Odyssey. ;-) I filled it up yesterday for $3.83 (full serve, too, which is all we have in NJ).
Dan D Central NJ USA
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On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:30:41 -0700, jim beam

I'm well aware of that.
Re coasting: the definition is simply forward motion due to force of gravity, I think you have added the bit concerning engagement of engine with drive train.
With respect to the engine cutting out (either by gas cutoff or ignition cutoff or both) when the torque is reversed (vehicle driving engine), this is something new to me and I am pretty sure that doesn't occur in my Civic (2005) or in any other fuel injected vehicle I have driven worldwide. I take your point that there is no gain by injecting fuel under these circumstances. How does the engine detect 'torque reversal' to cutoff fuel and ignition? Does this occur each time you brake as braking is a 'coasting' event the way you define it.
Incidentally what is 'electronic fuel injection' the converse of which is, I assume, 'mechanical fuel injection'. If you mean a carburetor in my 'parlance' a carburetor is an induction system not an injection system :-) re Collins English Dictionary 'induction'.
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Edward W. Thompson wrote:

why gravity? coasting is coasting - taking your foot off the gas while you're moving.

i did.

you can cut off ignition, but i'm not aware of anyone who does - what's important is shutting off gas.

it absolutely does. the point is, when you're coasting, you're primarily pumping air. not point injecting gas in that situation.

rpm and throttle position.

yes.
modern computer controlled electronically activated fuel injection.

if i'd meant carburetor, i'd have said carburetor.
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On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 06:30:52 -0700, jim beam

OK, then restating my previous question, what is the converse to electronic fuel injection in a gasoline engine. Mechanical fuel injection is the normal system for diesel engines but not, AFAIK, used for gas engines.
As I understand it you are saying that during the period when 'coasting' to stop no fuel is being admitted to the engine. If this correct at some point fuel must be readmitted to allow the engine to idle when the vehicle is at stop. The question is how does the 'system' determine when fuel is to be readmitted during the coasting event to prevent the engine from 'stopping' when at rest?
Incidentally rpm and throttle position does not indicate torque reversal (coasting) as you have implied.
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Edward W. Thompson wrote:

the old bosch systems were pretty much mechanical. remember the ones with the braided line that ran to each cylinder?

the computer monitors rpm's and starts re-injecting below a base threshold. older systems, that's about 1500rpm. according to tegger, more modern systems cut it to as low as 750rpm.

then you need to think this situation through one more time - there's no situation under which you can have high rpm's and a closed throttle unless you're coasting.
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:00:57 -0700, jim beam wrote:


Let me get this straight. I think you are claiming that the engine uses *NO FUEL* during coasting...., right? So, let's think of an example.... If I was coming down a large mountain, on the Interstate, at 65mph, and was to *COAST* for 20 miles (entirely realistic in some places), you are saying that I would not use ANY FUEL? Right?
My take on that is that it's absolutely wrong. The engine is still running, even if it's not doing any real "work". It is using fuel.
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