Re: GM is missing the point again

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The fact is most ALL of the vehicle manufacturers fall within the statistical average of 2%, which is the average number of faults for ALL manufactured products. Naturally one will be on top and one will be on the
bottom in ANY list but a variation of .05% to 1% is in indeed meaningless.
What the customers should be more concerned about is the total cost to drive the vehicle home, dealer service, shop rates for that service, insurance, and parts costs, not whose brand in on the grill.
mike

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Mike Hunter wrote:

That is why the best vehicle, a Lincoln, had 37 problems per 100 vehicles.
I guess 98% of the vehicles have no problems, but 2% of the vehicles have at 17 problems, on average.
> Naturally one will be on top and one will be on the

What's meaningless is your 2% statistic. The average was 125 problem per 100 vehicles. How that works to 2% is beyound me.

Including the cost of taking those cars, with average 1.25 problems per car, back to the dealer.
Jeff

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It is quite obvious that it is beyound you LOL
mike

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On Sat, 9 Jun 2007 13:39:41 -0400, "Mike Hunter"

It is obviously beyond you as well since you can't explain it.

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I never said 125 problems per 100 vehicles was 2%. Who ever did, does not understand how to figure statistical averages. LOL

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On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 17:27:00 -0400, Mike Hunter wrote:

Valid point. It is - after all - the total time behind the wheel that matters.
Oh, and Mike - *PLEASE* stop top posting. It is very annoying.
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k
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Mike, I agree, that's why you should try a cost to own comparison on edmonds.com. They compare on a 4 year basis, Maintenance, think repairs before and after 90 days, more like about the time the warranty ends, Resale Value (you know about that one Mike ), and yes original sale price and regular maintenance. Try for example comparing Camry, Accord, Malibu, and any other comparible domestics, and see what you come up with.
Most people don't own their only cars 90 days. I had a 92 Saturn SL2 that rated high in JD Powers and it was a terrible car. Three brake jobs before the warranty ran out (obviously my fault per the dealer). Used non-GM brakes after the warranty and never replaced them again up to 73k miles. Alternator died at 37k, dealer said can't help, rarely happens, parts guy said they fail all the time, hmmmm. Rattles, loose trim parts, noisy engine, bad body panels. Real quality car for the first 90 days, after that, well, downhill from there. In the end, trade in value was horrible too. The folks at saturn basically said too bad, so I say too bad when I don't consider them in the future.
Can't say that for my 3 Toyotas and my wife's 2 Hondas.

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You are entitle to your own opinion but I know that since I switched from buying Toyota / Lexus vehicles to domestics I have saved thousand of dollars every time I buy another new car and I have been saving hundreds of dollars annually on the maintenance costs at the dealerships.
mike

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On Fri, 8 Jun 2007 17:27:00 -0400, "Mike Hunter"

What is meaningless is your 2% number. 2% of what? 2% of all transmissions fail every day? 2% of cars will need a repair if driven 300,000 miles?
If you keep cars for two years (like you do) and have connections in the industry and/or enough money that you don't care about resale value, then it may not matter. For people who want to drive a car for 5 - 10 years and don't want to be making monthly trips to the garage, it makes a difference.

Economical car ownership is most dependent on avoiding depreciation costs and finance charges. High-quality, durable and reliable cars are best for this.

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Can't prove it by me. Of all the cars I have owned, only two were problematic over time, a '51 Chevy and a '97 Lexus. Although I do not keep my cars ten years most of them have gone to relatives and friends, some of whom keep then even longer than ten years. If one does the proper preventive maintenance any brand today will run to 200K or more.
I also own a '41, '64, '71, and a '83 domestics. All but the '41, where purchased new and currently have from 100K to 300K on the clock and they all look and run just fine.
Since I was in the fleet service business I have learned to do what corporate fleet mangers do. I look at the total cost over time to acquire, insure, maintain, repair and replace my vehicles. That is the reason why I no longer buy imports
mike

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For you so say that, the '97 Lexus must have been a lemon. In my case, it would take a really good deal to get me back into a Big Three car. My three Toyotas (and my daughter's Matrix) have made me realize that going to a repair shop with a problem is not necessarily a two-or-three times a year thing, it can become an "every two years, whether it needs anything or not" kind of thing. Now and then, I read the used car ads for amusement, and continually see 3 or 4 year old Cads which the owner states "85K miles, new transmission" and such ads for other American iron. I still like my American car, built in Georgetown, KY with the badge "Avalon" on it. ...And my Japanese Camry, now pushing 138K miles where only the starter, the water pump, timing belt and brake pads have been replaced. And the transmission is still smooth as silk.
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Really? My '64 domestic has 165K on the Clock and my, '71 has nearly 300K on the clock. My '83 domestic only has around 100K on the clock, but all three still have their original starters and water pumps. Like I said, todays cars are even better, 200k should be a cake walk if one does the maintenance ;)
mike

(M)y Japanese Camry, now pushing 138K miles where only the starter, the water pump,

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Sure Mike. Domestics are great. That's why their market share keeps declining.
I've owned cars since the '60s and think you're lying. Never replaced a starter? After 40 years of car ownership? That makes you the only one. My '83 domestic required a water pump replacement under warranty while still running the factory coolant. Warranty covered the faulty fuel pump, too.
None of my Honda or Toyota cars required as much repair or were as costly to maintain as my domestics. Why do you think GM was forced to go with a 100K mile powertrain warranty?
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I think you're lying. ;)
mike
wrote:

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I think it is enlightening to realize that the Big Three designed their cars to need repair frequently from the very beginning, while the Japanese had the exact opposite approach and designed their cars for durabililty from the very beginning. Hence the vast difference in quality between the two. In recent years, this gap has indeed dwindled for two reasons: the Americans have been forced by economics of sale to improve quality, and the Japanese have taken on some of the American way of thinking and have begun designing some of their components to fail after a predetermined length of time or duration of use. This allows future revenue in repairs and service. One example: Honda designed their Odyssey with a condensor without any protection from chips or stones from the road and has gotten back a huge windfall with the repairs, but the rest of the vehicle is absolutely top-notch. Another example: GM changed their horrible minivan and small truck vehicle platform to a new one as seen in the Envoy and Canyon etc... which is of top-notch quality and durability but it took them so many years because they were reaping huge windfalls from the downstream repairs of the old units. So, in a nutshell, Mike is partly right and partly wrong. I buy Hondas because I like the chassis designs and of course the engine reliability is legendary. But so are the Toyotas, but I don't buy them because I think they are plain ugly, the whole line of them from the Corolla to the Tundra.
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I'm really not trying to start a fight here, or even try to be smart. I've owned 14 GM products over the past 30 years and have been satisfied with all of them;of course, some more than others. Some vehicles I have kept for many many years, others, I sold or traded after a couple of years. One thing has been constant in ALL of the GM cars I have owned is this: I have NEVER owned a GM car that I have had to get rid of because it was mechanically unsound or unreliable. And if I had to replace a starter, water pump,AND timing belt after only 138000 miles, I would probably not continuing to own GM products!
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Blah Blah Blah. What does 2% mean?
On Sat, 9 Jun 2007 14:09:23 -0400, "Mike Hunter"

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It is what left after one subtracts 98% from 100%, Blah, Blah, Blah. LOL

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On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:19:47 -0400, "Mike Hunter"

IOW, it has nothing to do with automotive reliability, it is just a number you pulled out of your ass. Thanks for confirming that.

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It is there for all to read. in the various survey reports. Apparently you can't see it LOL
mike

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