Replace timing belt? ? ?

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I think the "seals" mentioned are actually the crank and cam oil seals. If you're diligent with your oil changes, and the seals are not found to be seeping when exposed on disassembly, then you don't really need to change them.
The water pump is a complete unit; its seals are not serviceable. The water pump should be replaced with every timing belt change.
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Tegger

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On 4/15/2010 12:40 PM, Tegger wrote:

There is a bearing that is replaceable when you have it torn down enough to replace the timing belt. My mechanic had me buy the the bearing too. This made sense to me.
I suspect that everything that is open when you get that far in should probably be replaced.
Michael
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That would be the timing-belt tensioner. Forgot about that. Those are generally OK for two belts.

Generally, yes. But there are some parts that often do not /need/ to be replaced. There's a difference between /needing/ to replace something and /wanting/ to replace it.
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Tegger wrote:

Time to hijack this thread!
My Mazda snapped the timing belt at less than 30K miles a couple of years ago. I am assuming it was a defective belt, as a new belt fixed the problem and it has not broken since.
Additional details: The timing belt, tension pulleys and water pump were all replaced, then the belt broke early, (less than 2 years and less than 30K miles), and I only replaced the belt after it broke, so I don't think it was a problem with anything other than the belt itself. All of the parts were Mazda OEM.
When this happened, the engine simply stopped, and there was no damage at all.
My question is, why does my Honda engine (possibly) suffer damage when the timing belt breaks and the Mazda engine does not?
I understand interference versus non-interference engines, what I am wondering is why any engines are designed to suffer damage when the timing belt breaks, since this is obviously not the way that the engine has to be made.
Is there an advantage performance-wise to having the engine designed to semi-self destruct when a timing belt snaps? Is it possibly cheaper to design and/or build?
Thanks!
Pat
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Good question. I thought maybe using an interference design had something to do with better volumetric efficiency. Here is what I found so far:
"The benefits of [the interference engine] design are a closer tolerance, shorter engine, more freedom in combustion chamber design and valve angle." from http://paultan.org/car-jargon /
But also: " ... [P]revious split-cycle engines have had problems relating to poor breathing (volumetric efficiency) and low thermal efficiency.The breathing problem [volumetric efficiency] is caused by the high- pressure gas trapped in the compression cylinder. This trapped high- pressure gas needs to expand before another charge of air can be drawn into the compression cylinder, which effectively reduces the engine's capacity to pump air and results in poor volumetric efficiency. Scuderi's engine solves the breathing problem by reducing the clearance between the piston and the cylinder head to less than 1mm. This design requires the use of valves that open outwards, enabling the piston to move very close to the cylinder head without interference with the valves. Almost 100 per cent of the compressed air from the compression cylinder is therefore pushed into the crossover passage." from http://www.engineerlive.com/Design-Engineer/Automotive_Design/Alternatives_to_four-stroke_engines_promise_an_increase_in_efficiency/22066 /
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Elle wrote:

http://www.engineerlive.com/Design-Engineer/Automotive_Design/Alternatives_to_four-stroke_engines_promise_an_increase_in_efficiency/22066 /
Excellent information, thanks!
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Good question. I thought maybe using an interference design had something to do with better volumetric efficiency. Here is what I found so far:
"The benefits of [the interference engine] design are a closer tolerance, shorter engine, more freedom in combustion chamber design and valve angle." from http://paultan.org/car-jargon /
But also: " ... [P]revious split-cycle engines have had problems relating to poor breathing (volumetric efficiency) and low thermal efficiency.The breathing problem [volumetric efficiency] is caused by the high- pressure gas trapped in the compression cylinder. This trapped high- pressure gas needs to expand before another charge of air can be drawn into the compression cylinder, which effectively reduces the engine's capacity to pump air and results in poor volumetric efficiency. Scuderi's engine solves the breathing problem by reducing the clearance between the piston and the cylinder head to less than 1mm. This design requires the use of valves that open outwards, enabling the piston to move very close to the cylinder head without interference with the valves. Almost 100 per cent of the compressed air from the compression cylinder is therefore pushed into the crossover passage." from http://www.engineerlive.com/Design-Engineer/Automotive_Design/Alterna ...
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Failure of the timing belt can result in significant damage to the engine so replacing it at the recommended intervals is a wise investment. Changing the water pump seals is a good idea since they are in the neighborhood and easily added to the job.
This job does not need to be performed by the dealer. It can be performed by any good mechanic with the proper tools and knowledge. You can save some money by using someone other than a dealer but, obviously, make sure the shop is competent.
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Thanks -- I'll certainly consider that. The Honda place is quoting $900, which seems high to me.
wrote:

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On 4/15/2010 7:20 AM, Ray wrote:

I'd certainly shop that job. The price seems high to me as well. I'm a couple years away from the job on my 2006 Accord with 58k and I seem to recall seeing prices for timing belt and the entire water pump quoted in the $600 range (or was that wishful dreaming?).
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Dddudley wrote:

What he said. You should be able to find a fully competent mechanic who will do the job for quite a bit less money.
I am not completely against using the dealership, but the mechanics there are not always the best, (it can be hit or miss), and the prices that a dealership charges is usually on the upper end for standard mechanic work, at least in my experience.
Good luck!
Pat
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Dddudley wrote:

2006? I assume this is a V6? The 4-banger on that version is chain-driven.
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On 4/15/2010 4:07 PM, Eternal Searcher wrote:

You are correct. Probably should have mentioned that<g>
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Depending where you live, there is a good chance you could find a competent independent shop that specializes in Japanese cars. Such shops do the work usually for much less and often better as well. I found mine through this web site: http://www.cartalk.com/content/mechx/find.html I think I found this site on this news group.
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On 04/15/10 08:20, Ray wrote:

If you trust the Honda dealer - don't forget to factor in the cost of your peace of mind. Not saying you should cough up the $900, but consider everything.
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LakeGator wrote:

My understanding is that the whole water pump is replaced along with the cam/crank seals.
JT
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I'm due in 2011 and my dealer wants $900. There is four hours of labor just for the belt.
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rick++ wrote:

Yes, this is a labor intensive task.
With my old relic Civics, it is about one an a half hours. But the modern stuff has lost all properties of simplification...
JT
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4-cylinder Accords have a balancer belt in addition to the timing belt. V6 Accords have a lot of stuff to take apart before the belt can be replaced. You want a cheap belt change? Get a Civic.
In any case, eventually this problem will go away, for most people. New cars are all using chains now.
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On 4/15/2010 1:10 PM Tegger spake these words of knowledge:

As someone else noted in this thread, some 4-cylinder Accords (my 2003 LX is one) have a timing chain designed to last the life of the car. I am approaching 90K miles on my 04 Accord V6, though. Not looking forward to the expenditure.
RFT!!! Dave Kelsen
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