Three-state starter button

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Does anybody *like* the three state version?
Times when I need electricity but not the engine, seems like I always end up cycling multiple times and/or accidentally starting the car,
before it's over.
Also, why wouldn't they have the windows work when the radio does?
J.
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"JRStern" wrote

Have you ever pressed the button to shut off the engine when the shift lever was anywhere but "Park?" More fun....
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dude, you're completely missing that this is EXACTLY how ignition keys have worked FOREVER.
Step 1: accessory power, including radio but not windows. On German cars, the headlights do not turn on.
Step 2: full power on. Everything is powered up and is pulling from the battery. On German cars, the headlights can turn on.
Step 3: engage engine starter. This part of the ignition switch is spring loaded, so all you have to do to release the engine starter is release the key. The key will settle back down to the "full power on" state, which is where the car and drive system are normally running.
Windows have never, ever worked when the ignition is on accessory power only.
So, on to power buttons and how to give the user the same experience:
Push 1: accessory power, including radio but not windows.
Push 2: full power on. Everything is powered up and is pulling from the battery.
Push 3: engage engine starter.
The Prius technically goes through accessory power, to all power, to off--but this behavior happens only when the driver's foot is off the brake. The only time the drive system comes to "Ready" is when the driver's foot is on the brake. And even then, it's only one push of the button. To take a Prius from full-off to Ready: make sure key is engaged (either in the slot or, in the case of the keyless ignition, inside the car somewhere), put foot on brake, push Start button one time. Voila.
You're saying that Honda does it differently? Are you saying that Honda forces you to push the Start button three times?
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On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:21:19 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Well now, I don't recall exactly, and I may have rewired at least one car so the windows DID work on accessory power, maybe my old Alfa.
I also vaguely recall cars where the accessory position of the key was in the opposite direction to the start trigger. Old GM?
When I turn off the car and find I've left a window open I have to hit the button twice to get power to the windows, then a third time to turn it off - unless I accidentally left my foot on the brake and then the engine starts. Sequences like that.
Except there's a little deal where the windows still work on accessory for five minutes or so, then they are cut out. So someone at Honda at least sees the issue, but that's not much movement towards a fix.
A simple red button for start, and blue button for accessory power that includes windows, would serve my purposes. Why would I want to turn on all systems without hitting the start trigger, maintenance? So hide the trick for that setting somewhere else, maybe hold the blue button for three seconds.
J.
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It happens that JRStern formulated :

VERY old

Most modern cars, Honda's included, even those still key operated (like my C300) the windows still operate after the ignition has been powered off until a door is opened. many the radio also stays on till a door is opened.

There are already too many buttons in modern cars and you are suggesting adding an additional one? To serve a very small use-case? It's not that hard. If you already powered down AND opened your door and then discover you left a window open then just hit the start button once without your foot on the brake and close the window then tap again till off.
Or, like many cars (can't remember is Honda does or not), press and hold the lock button on your keyfob for a few seconds and that ill roll up the windows.
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wrote:

Actually I think the car does that but I've never tried it. I seldom take the fob out of my pocket for car operations.
I don't like adding another button, that is well taken, but I also don't like three-states for these reasons, so it's a tossup. A three-position knob, like the key mechanism but without the key, would be fine. I've always thought "push-button start" was some kind of throwback to the 1950s or 1930s or forward to The Jetsons or something.
Voice operation might be better, if one could depend on it. For that matter the car could greet me by name and ask permission to start. Why not, in a few years I'll send it a text message and it will run down to the store by itself to pick up some groceries. I guess button engineering is just old school.
J.
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But the car you had before had the exact same three states. Where's the complaint?
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On Fri, 20 Feb 2015 05:42:14 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

The state transitions available were clearly marked on the keyhole, and there as no confusion possible as to going directly to the one I wanted, I didn't have to count to two, I didn't have to know if I needed to count at all, in order to get the car into the state I wanted.
Look at it from the operator's point of view, cuz it's the operator who is going to be operating the thing.
Nah, why should you do so, when obviously Honda doesn't.
J.
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JRStern wrote :

Don't count, look at the dash. If shit is off, then it is off. Press until on. Press again until off.
You're making more of this than it is.

My 17yr old daughter, the operator of our 2013 Crosstour, has zero confusion. When it was my wife's car and we had to use those functions (we go to the drive in theatre often in the summer) she had no issue operating it.
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wrote:

That's what I do, but what next, start whacking it with a rock until it works?

So once a month I end up accidentally starting the car when I don't mean to, but yeah, I'm making an issue out of it.
But more often than that I understand the cycles fully, but I don't like having to push a button three times and temporarily turn on all systems, just to crack open a window, and then again to close it. It's just dumb design, and the dumb design becomes an irritation beyond the actual operations.
The car "knows" I'm sitting there with the fob, so why don't the windows and radio just work, no button at all?
J.
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It happens that JRStern formulated :

So keep your foot off the brake pedal and it doesn't start.

For all the peopl who park in their garage and leave the fob in the car while the garage door is locked.
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wrote:

But I thought I could just press stuff until on? Now I have to watch my feet, too?

Never occurred to me that people do that. What do they do with the fob when they drive to the store, let me guess, give it to the valet, who may leave it in the car? LOL Don't know if the car "knows" if the fob is *in* the car versus *near* the car. So give me a setting in case that's an issue. Is there a valet fob?
J.
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JRStern presented the following explanation :

Yes, the car knows inside vs. near. My 2013, if you leave the FOB in the car and close the door the horn will honk a couple times to let you know it was left behind.
There is no valet FOB that I am aware of. When we go to the store we are existing the vehicle and therefore put the windows up (like people have done for year before we had keyfree systems) before powering anything down. We then exit the vehicle and lock it (again, like people have done for years befroe keyfree systms).
The windows working at all while the system is completely off is a recently added "convenience" feature to many cars keyfree and otherwise. My C300 which has a non-pushbutton ignition also will let one operate the windows for a time after the vehicle is powered down and before a door is opened. But you can still do things the same way they were done for years prior, don't kill the engine\power till all i ready to go.
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You mean <gasp!> like PILOT THE VEHICLE AND BE IN CONTROL OF IT?
With whining that I see here, I'm glad he's not an airline pilot...
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"JRStern" wrote

Yes, you do -- as you have had to for the past few? decades -- at least with regard to starting a car.
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On Mon, 23 Feb 2015 07:59:26 -0500, "Howard Lester"

But this is when already stopped, in regards to opening a window, something previously not much requiring foot control.
Thanks all for replicating what was no doubt the same discussion that took place within Honda, before their last human factors guy committed sepuku.
J.
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Of course he is. Welcome to the internet, where anyone can insert his fuckedupedness into your life at will.
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On Sat, 21 Feb 2015 15:41:41 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

Thanks for the illustration.
J.
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nope. Not on accessory power.
Windows work for 30 seconds or so after you've turned the ignition off. That's very common.
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"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote

Yes. The 2013 Accord's windows work for up to 10 minutes after the ignition is turned off -- as long as you don't open the door.
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