Time for gasolin summer mix yet?

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"GrumpyOne" wrote in message


Time to make ready the pitchforks and torches...
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We could all get electric cars, then recharge them by plugging into an already overtaxed distribution system that is fed by coal burning generation facilities.
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Is this nonsense going on in Canada, too?
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Cameo wrote:

Canada imports a good bit the ethanol they use from the USA.
It is not as if the corn was being used for anything useful prior to ethanol. The chief use of this corn if it wasn't turned into ethanol would be to produce vast quantities of animal fat and sugar which has led to the epidemic of heart disease and diabetes in the US. The choice is to turn it into crap food or turn it into fuel. And if it isn't used to pollute the US food supply it is shipped overseas to prop up dictators like Mubarek of Egypt. The reason farmers in Egypt can't feed their country is because they were bankrupted by US grain exports over the last 30m years and when the Nile delta farmers lost their land it was bought up by the wealthy and turned into golf courses and large estates.
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On 04/14/11 13:28, jim wrote:

"30m" = "30 thousand" years? Damn, that's a long time!
> and when the Nile delta farmers lost their land it > was bought up by the wealthy and turned into golf courses and large > estates.
Ah, the magic of free markets!
:)
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On 4/14/2011 3:45 AM, Cameo wrote:

Ethanol is now generally be added to gasoline, which is good because it is displacing MMT, which gummed up catalytic converters and engine control systems.
Some of the ethanol does come from grain based alcohol but much also is imported from Brazil which uses sugar cane to produce ethanol. Sugar cane production is far more more efficient than grain based methods. Using corn you get about 25-30% more energy than you put into the process, so it is reducing oil consumption. With sugar cane the returns are much higher (300-400%) which is in the same ballpark as much of current North American oil production.
Current US legislation blocks large scale imports of cane based ethanol.
In the long run, grain based ethanol production is likely only an interim step. Most of the solar energy plants absorb goes into producing cellulose not the sugar and starch the seeds. If we used the cellulose in the rest of the plant instead of just the sugar and starch in the grain the energy payback would be much higher (competitive with oil). Most of the current infrastructure currently being built/used to produce ethanol from grains can be re-used with cellulose sources.
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And if I were the size of a grain of rice, I could dance on the head of a pin; if we had perpetual-motion machines, we wouldn't need to use oil or ethanol; if I didn't need to breathe, I could live underwater.
If if if if.

Which is nowhere near /any/ sort of reality. Cellulosic ethanol is a pipe- dream that's used as partial justification for keeping the insanity alive.
--
Tegger

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On 4/14/2011 2:41 PM, Tegger wrote:

It's more than just a pipe dream. Iogen's demo plant produces about 1000 gallons a day. There are other cellulosic technologies being developed other places.
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A thousand gallons a day is a toy number. And that's at the cost of the diversion of 40% of the world's corn production.
They're going to need to be in the /millions/ of gallons per day to even come close to satifying the requiremenmts of the use of ethanol as a 10% additive, let alone as a fuel in its own right.
The simple fact is that there is currently no source of cellulase (the enzyme that breaks down cellulose) available that could be produced in the volumes necessary to make ethanol economically viable. Not only that, but there is not even anything in the lab that holds the promise of mass- production of cellulase. A pipe-dream, as I said.
Ethanol was, and is, a stupid, damamging idea. Unfortunately, thousands of influential people draw economic benefit from it at the expense of non- influential millions who have to pay for it, so it's not going to die anytime soon.
--
Tegger

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Well, ethanol-free gasoline can still be found around, thanks to the web site:
http://pure-gas.org
I was lucky to find one a few miles from my house and their prices are competitive with other stations.
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Yes. We also have politicians who like to buy votes with pork; the farm lobby and Commercial Alcohols take full advantage of that.
If politicians could not splash out cash to lobby groups, lobby groups would not exist. Think of it this way: which comes first, the flies or the garbage?
--
Tegger

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Tegger wrote:

Ethanol, climate change, health care reform are all liberal wet dreams having little to do with the scheme of things in the real world.
I'm starting to think that only a regime change with a resultant "Fidel Castro" method of remedy will fix it...
JT
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I only asked because I thought Canada was pretty selfsufficient in oil production.
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You want self-sufficient? Try Brazil.
In the last couple of years Brazil has boosted their domestic oil production by 876%. That's not a typo. They've done this by accelerating the issuance of drilling permits on- and off-shore. Even the Brazilians realize ethanol is an expensive feel-good toy.
--
Tegger

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On 4/14/2011 9:29 PM, Tegger wrote:

It is true that Brazil boosted it's domestic production of oil, but they they were almost self-sufficient before those discoveries were made because they use ethanol for much of their fuel needs. Car fuel Brazil has at least 25% ethanol, and 90% of the cars and light trucks sold their now can run with up to 100% ethanol mix.
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On 4/14/2011 3:13 PM, Cameo wrote:

> oil production.
Canada is more than self-sufficient. We were that back in the oil crisis of the 70's. Production has gone up a lot since then as higher prices made things like the oil-sands and off-shore drilling economic (although with a lot of up-front government money to kick start it.)
Today, Canada is the US's largest supplier of oil. (Mexico is second, then Saudi Arabia).
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email.me:

Except that Canada imports quite a lot of oil. <http://aspocanada.ca/eia-country-analysis-briefs-canada.html
Excerpt: "Even though Canada is a net oil exporter, it imports sizable quantities of crude oil and refined products. According to the International Energy Agency (IEA), Canada imported around 1.2 million bbl/d of crude oil and refined products in 2006."

Which means our oil isn't really economic to produce. Plus we're paying the rest of the world to take our expensive oil. Pretty stupid. And pretty Canadian.
--
Tegger

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On 4/15/2011 7:13 PM, Tegger wrote:

Yes we import a fair amount of oil. It's a long way from the oil producing regions regions to some markets. It makes more sense to pipe oil south to areas in the US, and import into areas more cheaply supplied from the ocean.
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That makes economic sense. As long as Canada is a net exporter then it's more than self-sufficient.
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So how come your enviromentalists don't prevent off-shore drilling the way they succeed in the US?
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Alan Bowler wrote:

I believe the Venezuela is way ahead of Saudi Arabia with respect to supplying the US with oil...
JT
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