Yaris, Scion xD, Honda Fit - no water temp gauge

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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:


A minority, but fairly large, percentage of car buyers are enthusiasts that understand how things work.

My wife doesn't have a clue how things work. She still told me, "the temperature gauge on my car is going about a half-division higher than it used to when I'm at a light, do you think something might be wrong?" That's when I found the dead fan motor. That would have never... NEVER... happened with a light or an "idiot" gauge that snaps to its normal range or to 'overheat'. The gauge in her car is entirely modern- its digitally driven by the body control module based on a feed from the powertrain control module, which gets the information from the analog sensor... HOWEVER, it moves linearly and accurately with temperature inside the normal operating range and a bit to either side, so you can very clearly see small changes. Its the best of both worlds.

Not as narrow as yours, apparently. You're the one that wants to force every driver to the lowest common denominator of instrumentation.

Its also harmless to them. Better yet, after watching a gauge a while, they'll learn what it means just like my wife did.
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And they are not the audience the carmakers want.
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

nah - there's a HUGE difference between those that /think/ they know and those that /actually/ do. i know that from having been on both sides of the vehicle fence - pure engineering and technician. even if you gave an "enthusiast" a "real" temp gauge, what are you going to do with the information? i know a thing or two about vehicle design, but unless i had a specific usage/conditions map for my vehicle, i wouldn't be able to "use" the readout. and even if i did, it /still/ wouldn't mean anything substantive to operation unless it was over spec!
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God you're dumb.
I've already given you two instances, one by a COMPLETE NON-TECHNICAL driver (my wife) where a gauge saved an engine.
And in the other case where I (an engineer) was able to detect a failed filter by abnormal (but still technically in-spec) pressure behavior.
Debate over, proof presented, no question remaining.
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Steve wrote:

Weird. Here it seems like you're supporting the argument I've been making all along.
and then in another post, you write:

maintain their cars, can suddenly see the gauges and know what to think about them.

got on Daddy's computer come bombing into a newsgroup where (Lloyd notwithstanding...) we've all had pretty informative, intelligent, and rational conversations for years... and presume to tell us that we don't have a clue.

I'm so confused.
nate
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And you expect that the car buying and car using public at large--who are not engineers, and who can barely find their way to the bathroom--would benefit from such a gauge.
Would buy such a gauge.
You're an ignorant asshole. That's all there is to it. You show it every time you open your mouth.
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Steve wrote:

and the so-called "idiot light" would have served exactly the same purpose!

so you say. but if you'd used a decent filter in the first place, with the correct change interval, that wouldn't be an issue.

what kind of "engineer" are you? we used to have some guys run about our place only barely smarter than the 10lb hammers they carried - they called themselves "engineers" too.
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

Why not?
Why do the auto makers care how enthusiastic people are about cars?
Jeff
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Not harmless at all--it costs the money.
And 99.99% of the people won't learn and will never care.
You need to get out more.
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It's not harmless at all--as described earlier in this thread, with fluctuating gauges simply reflecting normal operation. But, the ignorant people seeing the fluctuation immediately assumed "something's wrong," and took the car in for service.
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That's right. In another few years, they'll eliminate ALL the instrumentation. No more speedometers, since automated governors linked by radio to the electronic highway system will make it impossible to speed. No more temperature gauges, voltmeters, or oil pressure gauges.
In the new era, there will just be one light on the dashboard, that says "REPLACE CAR" and when it comes on, the GPS system will print directions to the nearest GM dealer that you can give to the taxi cab driver that Onstar will dispatch.
Oh, actually, I take that back. They'll still be selling automatics with a tachometer, because everybody knows tachometers are cool. --scott
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"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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Scott Dorsey wrote:

you've never worked in customer support then...
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Don't be so sure that the temeprature gauge is any better than the idiot light. Many US and Japanese manufacturers now install temperature gauges that are controlled by the engine computer (PCM) instead of directly by a temperature transducer. They move upwards sort of like a "real" temperature gauge as the car warms up, but it is an act controlled by the PCM. The guage moves only in response to the commands from the PCM. Unless the car overheats, the gauge is commanded to the "normal" position. Some have an intermediate position between "normal" and "hot," some don't. Either way, it is only a little better than the "idiot" light you don't like. I don't know if the cars you mentioned have this sort of guage. I know my Ford Fusion and Nissan Frontier do. I think my SO's RAV4 does as well, but I have not had a chance to review the wiring diagrams to be sure. I suspect if you want "real" gauges you will need to install them yourself, or buy a German car.
Ed

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Shamefully, even BMW has embraced the fake gauges. I cannot imagine what they were thinking. --scott
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"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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Scott Dorsey wrote:

they were thinking through the engineering functions rationally and logically!
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Scott Dorsey wrote:

They were thinking "DAMN I wish all these nitwits that are complaining because the oil pressure gauge moves when the engine changes speed would go away and let us build cars!!"
People that don't have a clue about how an engine works and were complaining to Ford about 'fluctuating oil pressure' (which was in fact perfectly normal) are EXACTLY why Ford went to an idiot gauge (pressure switch) way back when.
The "my car is a toaster" crowd that made the Camry the best stilling POS in the world is ruining the driving experience for the rest of us more and more every day.
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Hardly. There's a car, actually a plethora of them, for every taste.
At any rate, now we know what your ACTUAL complaint is. You can't find a car to suit your particular tastes.
Ain't that a bitch.
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

Again, its not MY problem, I'm just commenting on it as a symptom of how ignorant of how a car works the average driver has become.
Besides I have 5 cars that suit my taste beautifully, and there are plenty of others I'd love to have (a Challenger SRT-8 tops the list, but that aint gonna happen unless I were to sell the '69 R/T convertible and that's not bloody likely)
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No, it's a symptom of how appliance-like the cars have become--which depends on, and also feeds, the fact that auto transportation has become a necessity--not a hobby, not a luxury.
When the Model T came out, you had to know everything about the car and be your own mechanic. Of course, that was OK back then. Now imagine the Model T being the primary source of transportation today.
Face it: technology starts out in the labs, then hits the early adopters, then eventually becomes mainstream--and appliance-like. I don't have to know how a computer works just to be able to take and send pictures on my cell phone.
You don't like that technology becomes an appliance. Tough shit. That's how life works.
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

Really? The media keep telling us just how unnecessary it is. Live in a high-rise. Take the bus. Ride a bike. Its the new urbanism. </sacrcasm>

Cars were already appliance-like in 1940, but they still had real instrumentation. And appliances can be either versatile equipment with a good operator interface, or cheap crap from Target too.
I

But it damn sure helps if you have a clue. It lets you do more, do it better, and be more productive than the appliance-user. And knowledge prevents you from being dependent on a sysadmin somewhere.

Fortunately there are still plenty of cars for people who ENJOY cars out there.
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