Hyundai Genesis: Rear-wheel drive? What!?

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I think your car is a gas hog. That is the point. There are cars that get 50 MPG so you are wasting nearly twice as much gas as you need to!

Yes, you drive a gas hog and just don't want to admit it. You'd rather blame other people and their vehicles.

Matt

My point is that you have drawn some self-appointed line in the sand as to what is a gas hog and what isn't. My point is also that your line is no better than mine. You think that 30 MPG constitutes not driving a gas hog and I say the line is 20. My line is just as good as yours.

Matt

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Once again, you're not even close. The only car I own is my Elantra.

Fair enough, but hopefully if/when the gubermint decides to draw a line again, it will be closer to mine than yours. As much as I dislike government interference in my life, if people won't do the right thing on their own, sometimes there's little other choice.

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Which is still a gas hog. There are many cars that get better mileage.

Matt

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Do you just enjoy making a fool out of yourself or something? I hope so, as you're doing a good job of it.

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I don't think exposing hypocrites is foolish.

Matt

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Maybe you should go find one, then.

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So, I don't mean to feed trolls but if Matt says your car is such a "gas hog" and there are ALL THESE CARS THAT GET OVER 50 MPG...well, Matt, put your money where you mouth is. And be sure to put it with the updated EPA standards as well. he ain't a hypocrite. I think he just reinforced the fact that since you have no evidence to support your claim, you're like a Republican debating a Democrat: all blame and no game.

- Thee Chicago Wolf

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The Civic and Prius both get 50 or better.

Matt

I guess the irony here is that: 1) BOTH are Hybrids, 2) BOTH are front-wheel drive. Those number assume people do 45% HWY driving and

55% city. I don't speak for most people in this group but I'd say my ratio is closer to 75% CITY and 25% HWY. While on paper those numbers may be true, in ideal condition, you know the old saying: "Actual Experience May Vary."

Honda Civic Hybrid:

Toyota Prius:

- Thee Chicago Wolf

On May 1, 6:11 pm, Matt Whiting

So did the 1980s-vintage Chevy Sprint and the 1970s-vintage VW Rabbit Diesel. And all without the hundreds of pounds of expensive, chemical- laden batteries and overly-complex Rube Goldberg-esque drivetrain. I fully expect most hybrids will be rusting away in the junkyards shortly after the warranty on the battery pack expires.

My own daily driver gets about 15 miles per gallon, and I have no problem with that. (No, it's not a Hyundai. I check into this newsgroup periodically because the wife drives a Sonata.)

You're joking right?Are you referring to the 1.6L 55HP model? Gee, it's no surprise it got great gas mileage with those specs. It's 2007. Maybe we should all go back to carburetors too? Look, the fact is that the Energy Tax Act of 1978 exempts SUVs and trucks from being required to have good fuel economy. So long as people can afford them and have gobs of money to spend on high fuel prices, their vehicles will always use MORE of existing fuel than if their vehicles had to comply with fuel-economy standards. Since that loophole has yet to be closed, it affect the rest of us directly, not indirectly. It no longer has anything to do with the "it's a person's choice to drive whatever they want to" argument. People with money don't care how high fuel prices go so long as they can drive what they want no matter how inefficient it is. Close the loophole for trucks and SUVs, and I do believe gas prices will come down some. That is a solid cause and effect argument, take it with a grain of salt, but the supply and demand side of it is air-tight. You do the math.

Battery packs, to the best of my knowledge, are rated 10 years.

- Thee Chicago Wolf

I do not see what relevance the year has.

The fact is that even with decades-old technology it was possible to get 50 miles per gallon in a small car without all the drawbacks of hybrids.

My own car has a carburetor. Works just fine, and is simple to repair if something goes wrong.

being required

Look, the fact is that government has no business dictating gas mileage. That is a job for the free market.

That is very short-term thinking. (It is also unlikely any batteries currently in production will actually last that long.) Hybrids just don't make any sense as far as I'm concerned. When we went new-car shopping for the wife last year we did not even consider them.

from being required

I appreciate your response but your facts are not right.

All it takes for the rest of the people to get screwed by Luddite mentalities is to sit idly on their hands and do nothing. Sorry but a "good-enough" mentality just isn't good enough today. Maybe you have too much money too spend on $3.50 gas prices so you don't care. The rest of us are bleeding dry. Average Americans are getting more financially strapped since gas prices have essentially doubled in the last 4 years. I realize that Americans have nothing to complain about with respect to gas prices elsewhere (hello Europe) but "elsewhere" have fuel economy standards that are much higher than ours. You apathy is very disconcerting. As long as thing's don't affect YOU, who cares right? What about the rest of us? What about future generations? Poor decisions now affect all generations down the line.

It'll tell you why the year has complete relevance. If you'd rather revert back to an era when cars were inefficient, had no safety regulations, no airbags, no anti-lock brakes, no vehicle stability control, or other amenities we take for granted now, that's fine. Don't drag the rest of us who want progress, change, and improvements along with you. If you fear change, that's your problem, not anyone else's. There are benefits to not wasting and it's disappointing to see that you cannot concede that waste is bad. Maybe it is easier to fix a carburetor but that technology suffers from so many other problems than modern injector technology doesn't. I'm sorry if you don't like the fact that computers and technology controls and more optimally runs a vehicle than a grease-monkey can. Is it more costly to fix when it breaks. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Thankfully, technology does this wonderful thing of becoming cheaper as the years progress. If it were not true, we'd all still be paying $500 for a DVD player. If it weren't for progress and rules, we'd all still be using leaded gas. It all ties in together. You don't agree?

Right now, the batteries are a large part of the price tag of hybrid car, but the battery tech they're using is pretty old-tech as well. After all, Hybrids have only been around for a few years. It is in its infancy. They are progressing towards LiOn and newer technologies but those batteries are, currently, much much more expensive to implement. Given a few more years and R&D, it'll be old news.

Short-term thinking is thinking it will never get better. After all, all of the amenities in cars today, only a few years ago, were only for people with lots of money to spend on high-end models. As production costs continue to decrease and adoption rates increase, "optional" suddenly became standard. Funny that, huh?

Another funny thing about the free market model: who control the market? In my opinion, not the consumers. Since the auto boys are making gobs of cash off of expensive SUVs, it is no longer in their best interest to improve upon sedans and smaller cars because they make less profit on smaller cars. So if you think that free market determines cost and trends, what would happen if all the auto makers decided they want to make more money by making less smaller cars and sedans and only focused on their big money makers? After all, free market or not, if your options are limited to what auto-makers think customers want, how free is it exactly? Fact is, the Oil boys have gotten hip over the past few years the de facto business model for the

21st century: Make less, charge more. Artificial supply and demand manipulation. I don't think there's any conspiracy, OPEC, or other excuse behind it. It's just business.

Last month, Bob Lutz of GM backtracked on a high-performance rear-wheel drive V8 saying it couldn't be done efficiently. Apparently now it may happen but with a V6. Guess why: Energy Tax Act of 1978. Thankfully there are at least SOME basic standards that exist in this country, too bad they are horribly outdated compared to other countries.

- Thee Chicago Wolf

TCW-

I just finished reading the post with your comments on the MPG and vehicle exemptions. Lost of good stuff there.

Fuel goes up, Oil CEOs get richer, pay offs to the big 3 get larger, more of America's disposable income goes overseas, etc. I recently came back from Las Vegas and followed a 2006 H3, painted pink and driven by what seemed like an 18 year old beauty with personalized plates (and of course on the cell, all over the road!). I knew right off the bat Daddy paid for this thing.

Does an 18 year old girl really need an H3 that gets horrible mileage? What is the sole purpose of this? Is there really a NEED for it? I know it's a "status thing". My daughter drives a 93 Ford Tempo that gets 25 MPG. Now, that's a reasonable vehicle decision! There's only so much fossil fuel to go around. Every vehicle in my home gets 25 MPG or better. We coordinate trips into town, etc. It's not about being cheap, but a conscientious decision of our environment and the fattening someone else's wallet.

In this day and age, not EVERYONE needs and SUV or Pickup that gets poor economy. Granted, it's a choice issue, but unless we get away from this type of mentality we're heading for trouble. Granted, the govt should have limited power over this issue, but I do believe that it needs to be addressed and they should intervene.

Steve in AZ

Thanks for taking the time to read the thread and posts. I apologize if some of it comes off preachy but it's just something I believe in very strongly and should be on every person's mind. I'm sure daddy's girl driving the H3 had a bumper sticker of Save The Whales on there too eh?

My fellow co-worker informed me that there is an H4 squarely on the way that's smaller and, gaffaw, more fuel efficient than the H3. No one really needs a Hummer 'cept maybe the construction crowd. The rest just look cool driving down the street letting everyone know they pay $100+ a fill-up to look cool. For the average person, it's about as utilitarian a vehicle as driving a Howitzer. A Howitzer probably gets better mileage (note sarcasm).

You're right regarding the limit of fossil fuels though. Anyone who thinks there will be some supply out there that hasn't been discovered is crazy. What do you think the Oil boys have been up to the last 34 years since the Arab Oil Embargo? There are cadres of companies out there constantly looking. Last I heard, they found some GIANT field

200 miles off the cost of Texas. Problem is it's a few THOUSAND feet below the water. The engineering and technology doesn't exist yet to get it out but they're thinking of ways to get at it. I don't know about you but every movie I've seen where humans go way the hell down to the bottom of the ocean, some major fit hits the shan. I can just see something going wrong then all this oil comes pouring to the surface a la Exxon / Valdez.

Here's the article in case you're interested:

All the fist-pounders who are agreeing with Bush that we have to get away from "foreign" oil (well, let's call a duck a duck, Arab oil) just need to revert back to a mentality that is what they did in the old-school: waste not, want not.

All the senior citizens on my block who drive tell me they're getting slammed with these gas prices. I can sympathize because they're on fixed incomes since they're retired. The cost of living for them has gone through the roof in just the past 5 years. Honestly, I don't see as many seniors driving the big boats as I used to. But I'll tell you what an 18-year old need: a job.

If you missed the news on an interesting fuel-efficiency tweak that a college student from the Netherlands was doing for his Ph.D., check out this link:

Thanks for being conscious of MPG and doing your part. I wish my Sonata did better in that department but I do what I can to stretch my fuel dollars too.

- Thee Chicago Wolf

from being required

You just refuted your own argument. I believe that your claim was that a mandated higher mileage standard would reduce demand and thus reduce the price per gallon of gasoline. Since Europe has much lower demand than the USA, by your logic they should pay LESS for gas than we do rather than more. I think you just shot down your own argument. Don't you just hate it when that happens? :-)

I know a big part of the reason that Europe pays much more for fuel than the USA, and that fact also shoots down your argument.

Matt

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I'm still waiting for your apology since I posted the data that you claimed I did not have.

Matt