I have to disagree with you here. I find modern all-season tires very good in snow. Not as good as snow tires, no doubt, but good enough for
99.9% of the snow I encounter in a typical winter and I encounter about
5 months worth here in PA.
They aren't the best possible tire in snow, but then I don't need the best possible tire. I need a tire good enough for my conditions and that is what my all-season tires are: good enough for my needs.
Saying you need snow tires is like saying you need all-wheel drive. All-wheel drive is better than FWD, but that doesn't mean that every NEEDS it. Same with snow tires.
Well, your mother was wrong. It DOES cost more to haul around a full tank of gas! And it does cost more to use snow tires. They wear much faster than an all-season or summer tire so every mile put on a snow tire is more costly than a mile put on an all-season or summer tire.
No, I'm not bothered by the summer compromises of all-season tires as, again, I don't need the performance of a performance summer tire. The only difference I saw between the tires that came on my Sonata and the tires I have now is that the performance tires wore out in 30K miles rather than the 50-60K I typically achieve with all-season tires. That is the performance of most interest to me.
That's my point, so I'm happy to echo your words Matt. Here in Central NY, I've just never encountered the time when I "needed" snow tires. My driving habits are not impared by a good ASR, and I haven't suffered incoveniences that would have been avoided with snows. I tend to drive as fast and as aggressively as conditions permit, and I just expect that winter conditions can and often do, dictate that those two terms don't mean the same thing they do in the summer time. Snows would not change that. It's not all about being able to take off. It's also about being able to stop, avoid, etc. The marginal benefit that snows would offer in the full spectrum of winter driving are just lost on me. If I haven't encountered needs for them in the 30+ years since I last purchased a snow tire, why would I want to put them on now? They wouldn't change my winter time driving habits, so any marginal benefit would just be lost. Without a doubt - I fully agree with your dissention to the previous comment that ASR's are insufficient for winter use. Touring tires are (IMHO), but there are a lot of very good ASR tread patterns that are perfectly acceptable for winter use.
Which leaves unturned, that huge stone that attempts to argue that since 4WD will take off better in snow, move through snow better with 7 1/2 feet of steel sticking off the nose, and in fact push the weight of that snow ahead of that 7 1/2 feet of steel, that 4WD must be better in snow. There are downsides to the confidence that falsely creeps into people's minds when there are niche benefits to things.
Okay, so let's say I have a sedan with nice looking mags and a "too full" garage. Should I buy 4 less than beautiful steel wheels to mount 4 snow tires when their benefit to me is trivial? I don't have space to store less than necessary stuff in my garage --- along with the other probably unnecessary junk I've got there : )
I think that's the mindset of people who live in the climate area I'm discussing
If I had a nice set of wheels I would probably buy a set of snows w/ steel wheels for several reasons.
1) I do not drive aggressively enough to worry about the difference in handling.
2) Here in SE Michigan we have these thing that crop up every winter called potholes. Hit a large one at speed with your nice wheel and tire and you could be out almost the cost of a set of winter tires/wheels.
3) The gain in snow driveability that you will gain from a narrower tire say going from a 255/50/17 to a 225/75/16 (example only) with a winter specific tread is undeniable. Yes you can drive all winter with all season tires but if I had the money and drove a lot of miles I defy anyone, that has had experience with both, to honestly say that on a snow and/or ice covered road that they will opt for all season over winter tires .
4) Keeping my nice wheels free of road salt and extending the life of my "good" tires by five to ten months are also added benefits.
Only you can decide if the benefits are trivial or not. Where you live, how much snow, what your nice mags and wheels cost, what the road conditions are and whether you have space to store an extra set are all considerations that only you can factor in.
And keep in mind that SE Michigan has noticeably less snow than mid-Michigan. I drove over 45 years on mid-Michigan roads and could never justify snow tires. And a good part of those years was before front-while-drive and radial tires were commonplace.
Of course, now that I live in sunny southern Arizona I don't have to even consider them : )
All these messages about driving the Hyundai on ice and snow brought to mind an entry in the Owner's manual for my 200- Sonata GLS v6.
It clearly states "Tire chains should not be used on P205/60/ R15 tires. With these tires there is not sufficient clearance for chains installation between the tires and other vehicle components and damage may result"
The TC works very well. When I pull out of my driveway I make a left up a hill A few mornings in snow the TC did a very good job but it seems even better in 2nd.
I've also been able to pass other cars on a hill with the help of TC while the others were spinning. And that is with 30K on the original tires. Overall, I'm pleased with the snow performance of the car.
Oh, no, I'm not considering snows. Like you and Mike point out, too much of a compromise for the rest of my driving.
That's simply not true and since you haven't used any in over 30 years, you have nothing to base that conclusion on. Winter tire design and rubber formulations have changed considerably. While it's true that they use softer tread compounds than some "all season tires", they're quite durable in the colder winter temperatures they're designed for. They're often MORE durable that typical soft summer "performance" compounds. My winter tires last at least as many seasons as my summer tires and they typically cost less. Once you amortize the cost of the extra set of wheels, it's all gravy (I had one set of wheels that I used on four cars between '84 and '04). Unless one drives aggressively year-round when on dry pavement, there is no significant downside to winter tires. There ARE significant safety and performance advantages to them in nasty winter conditions. There isn't any inconvenience, either. As Darby pointed out, instead of rotating your tires twice per year (which we should be doing anyway), you just swap from summers to winters and vice versa - rotating them whenever they're reinstalled, of course. If making the switch forces people to rotate their tires when they might not do it otherwise, their summer tires will last longer and they'll actually see some cost saving from it.
Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of three things:
You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are dramatic differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as "all season". As I said before, I drive a lot of rental cars and I've had to use many of them in snow and most of the performance of the tires on them have range from "reasonably acceptible" to "downright dangerous". NONE of them have been what I would call good performers in snow, compared to my winter tires. Keep in mind that all of these cars have had relatively low mileage on them, so the tires with in good shape. Whether you believe it or not, the difference IS quite substantial.
That's exactly my point. Snow tires improve performance in ALL of those categories in bad conditions.
No, it's not like that at all. The truth is that very few people actually NEED 4WD or AWD, they just THINK they do. They perceive benefits that simply aren't there and ignore the downsides.
What people actually need is better traction in a vehicle that handles well. FWD and AWD are not a guarantee of the former, since the tires are at least as large of a factor as the drive system, and they're a definite disadvantage when it come to handling, except in the case of some higher-end AWD systems in cars.
Absolutely! It's what convinces people to spend thousands of extra dollars on vehicles that are no better in the snow - and often worse - than a FWD car with a few hundred dollars worth of snow tires on it. It's also what makes them feel invincible enough to drive like idiots in bad conditions and ultimately end up off the road on their roofs.
Sales statistics are no indicator of need or efficacy, simply of buying trends. A good example of that is the large percentage of people that buy SUVs vs. how many actually have a real need for one. I could easily argue that less than 2% of drivers have any real need for an SUV. I could also reasonably argue that many - if not most - SUV buyers would be better off in many ways if they bought a car and a set of snow tires instead of an SUV.
That's true, but it's a case of "the pot calling the kettle black" considering some of the blatantly false and/or misleading statements you've made in this thread.
If I've driven in northern snow for almost 50 years -- many before front-wheel drive or radial tires -- without any significant problem, none of things you boiled this down to do not apply. Maybe "I don't need to" would be a better addition to your list.
I do agree that there are a ton of what I consider to be pure junk ASR's out there. Mainly in the touring tire category. It's not hard to find a nice soft, quiet tire that is junk in any condition other than cruising down dry interstates. They hydroplane badly, they corner badly, and they are as useless as slicks in the snow. That said - I've had no trouble finding perfectly acceptable ASR's that serve me well year round.
Winter tires lack the tread wear rating for a reason.
I also said I haven't used snow tires on my CARS in over 30 years, but I do use them on my snow plow truck and they wear MUCH faster than all-season tires.
Winter tire design and
I have no doubt that snow tires will outlast performance summer tires as they have VERY soft compounds and absolutely lousy tread life. However, they will not outwear a good all-season tire, not even close. Post even one credible reference that suggests otherwise.
No, they boil down to "I don't need them." It is as simple as that.
A question for you, do you drive only all-wheel drive vehicles?
The truth is, very few people NEED snow tires, they just think they do. The benefits of AWD exceed the benefits of snow tires as many tests have shown.
My truck in 4WD handles much better than my FWD cars.
Can you produce a reference to any tests that show that snow tires on a
2WD car increases performance in snow more than AWD on that same car?
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