Hyundai preformance on icy raods

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Matt Whiting wrote:


No it's just that AWD is NOT the solution to better winter driving.
If you read the OP he says a couple of things that should have been the logical extension of this thread.
1)"The vehicle has never behaved badly on snowy roads, or slushy roads, just ice." And then goes on about how the front end is heavy so in his estimation the car should be better on ice. This is one point of discussion - should a car that is front-end heavy be better on ice (my response is no why would you expect more mass to be better than less when the coefficient of friction is less?) 2)"Anybody out there have similar experience with Hyundai and ice?" I don't think there were many answers to this 3)"I run my tires high (35-40 psi), would lowering that help?" Was there any response to this?
I'm not going to get into your and Brian agreement to disagree. All I am saying is that for all-around winter driving where snow and ice are more than an occasional occurrence winter tires make a difference. Your post that I responded to even said the same "For maximum traction, equip it with winter tires. In less-snowy areas, front-wheel drive and a set of winter tires should suffice. Mount winter tires on all four wheels for balanced handling." Of course this didn't seem to make an impression on you so you needed to add "The only thing they left out is that all-season tires also suffice in most areas of the country." Well excuse me but we really aren't talking about most areas of the country. I thought that the discussion was about areas of the country with snow and ice conditions where WINTER (my emphasis) tires do make a difference that even your supporting quotes seem to say. Just because you perceive that someone is siding with Brian does not mean that it is Brian under an assumed name.
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Matt Whiting wrote:

I understand that they accelerate faster, but what part of "Better traction won't guarantee shorter stops. Braking distances on ice were about the same for the all-wheel- and front-wheel-drive cars." didn't you understand? As far as I'm concerned, acceleration is a minor consideration and it's meaningless if you can't stop or turn. AWD/4WD does nothing to help either and 4WD systems can actually increase stopping distances and adversely affect cornering if the hubs are locked. Look it up, Matt.
You also ignored this paragraph: "Winter tires yielded the biggest snow-traction gain for the buck, however. Using them helped the front-drive cars reach 20 mph nearly 28 feet sooner than they did with all-season tires. Cost: about $400 for four winter tires plus another $200 or so for an extra set of wheel rims to ease the switch to winter tires."
Gee, I wonder who's been saying that all along?

Winter tires DO suffice and they perform better than ASRs, exactly as the article states. If I lived in an area where deep snow was common and AWD was truly needed (the risk of getting stuck was high), I'd own an AWD vehicle and as the article recommends, I'd equip it with snow tires, too. I don't seen any benefit to AWD with ASRs compared to front-drive with snow tires for the type of conditions I typically face. Acceleration is the least important factor in winter driving safety and again, you don't gain anything in stopping or cornering with AWD. The fact that it accelerates better creates a belief in drivers that traction is better than it actually is and the result is many of them get in trouble. OTOH, snow tires improve ALL aspects of performance in slippery conditions. Shame on Consumer Reports for not testing cornering and braking, as it would shed an entirely different light on the subject.
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Brian Nystrom wrote:

If I can't get out of my driveway, then stopping is irrelevant. I just gave you a long post detailing when AWD helps and when it doesn't, and it helps in almost every condition except braking. However, 4WD can even help in braking.
Why do you want me to do your homework for you? Couldn't find it either and hoping my search skills are better than yours? :-)

I didn't ignore and had no reason to. I agree with it. I've simply said that most people don't NEED more traction and thus ANY additional cost is a waste of money. Moreover, winter tires are WORSE in the conditions that prevail MOST of the time - dry roads.

Acceleration may be the least important parameter purely for safety, but that isn't true for utility. If I can't get out of my driveway and up the hills, then being able to stop isn't even a consideration. And I handle the stopping very simply by not following too closely. I've driven in winter conditions for more than 30 years with ASR tires and have never rear-ended another vehicle or hit something because I couldn't stop in time.
Matt
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Matt Whiting wrote:

So let me see if I have this straight.
- You choose to drive a front-drive car, rather than AWD/4WD AND - You choose to use tires that provide inferior traction to snow tires
It seems to me like you're saying one thing and doing another, Matt. I believe they call that "hypocrisy".

Neither have I. So what? All that means is that we're both driving within the ability of our vehicles to handle the conditions. Snow tires provide an extra margin in the case of unexpected circumstances and I'm glad to have it. I've driven relatively comfortably through conditions where other vehicles around me were struggling and in some cases literally sliding off the road. I'll bet that if I offered them snow tires, they would have taken them in a heartbeat. ;-)
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Matt Whiting wrote:

You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are dramatic differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as "all season". As I said before, I drive a lot of rental cars and I've had to use many of them in snow and most of the performance of the tires on them have range from "reasonably acceptible" to "downright dangerous". NONE of them have been what I would call good performers in snow, compared to my winter tires. Keep in mind that all of these cars have had relatively low mileage on them, so the tires with in good shape. Whether you believe it or not, the difference IS quite substantial.
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I do agree that there are a ton of what I consider to be pure junk ASR's out there. Mainly in the touring tire category. It's not hard to find a nice soft, quiet tire that is junk in any condition other than cruising down dry interstates. They hydroplane badly, they corner badly, and they are as useless as slicks in the snow. That said - I've had no trouble finding perfectly acceptable ASR's that serve me well year round.
--

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Mike Marlow wrote:

And fleet rental cars don't exactly come with top'o the line tires.
Matt
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Matt Whiting wrote:

That's certainly true, but they typically come with the same tires that the same vehicle is equipped with for consumer purchases. The few that I've actually looked at - generally because I was trying to figure out what was wrong with them - have all been major brand tires and popular models.
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Mike Marlow wrote:

That's exactly what my experience has been.

I certainly wish the cars I've been forced to drive had something like that on them. I have yet to find ANY ASR that comes close to the performance of winter tires in snow. I have to wonder if you might think differently if you had the chance to do back-to-back comparisons on the same car(s), as I have? That always seems to be the stumbling block with most people. As I've said before, the people I've convinced to try winter tires have ALL been stunned at the difference. Essentially, they didn't realize what they were missing, which is understandable. Tire companies have done a great job of selling the "all season" myth.
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Brian Nystrom wrote:

There is no myth so it must have been a REALLY hard sell!
Matt
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Matt Whiting wrote:

Wow Matt, that's a really strong argument! You must have been the star of your high school debate team.
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Brian Nystrom wrote:

It sure beats your "I'm Brian and this is my opinion therefore it must be fact" line of argument. You have yet to provide a SINGLE independent reference in support of any of your claims. I rest my case.
Actually, I was a very good member of my high school debate team. Then again, in a real debate your "it is true because I say it is true" line of argument simply isn't accepted. Only independent references are acceptable. It is obviously that you weren't even on a debate team in high school.
Matt
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Matt Whiting wrote:

Yeah, that will be the day. Matt, I have the evidence that proves you wrong right on my car. I have direct experience with both types of tires on multiple vehicles. You call it "opinion", I call it fact, as I've lived it. You've never done any of it and you haven't provided a single test that compares snow tires and ASRs back to back. The articles you posted actually support my position more than your own, but you simply ignore those parts, as others here have pointed out. If there's anyone here who's arguing strictly on opinion, it's YOU, Matt.

The only place that's been done here is in your mind, Matt. I have never once said anything of the kind.

Let's see. You've got a pre-determined bias and you completely ignore all evidence to the contrary, as others have pointed out. You fabricate issues and you blatantly mis-state your opponent's position, which simply undermines your own credibility and highlights your desperation. You divert the subject when you get cornered by your own lies, hypocrisy and fabrications. If that's what you call a debate, you couldn't debate your way out of a paper bag. I hope you don't have to make a living convincing people to believe you. Then again, you sound a lot like a politician...
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Brian Nystrom wrote:

I drive a lot of rental cars also (10 a year at least) and find no problem in snow. I was in Fargo, ND just last week. Not a lot of snow, but the -34F with -50F wind chill was interesting.
Matt
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Brian Nystrom wrote:

No, most of the people in the snow belt are like me and simply don't need snow tires. I did a quick search and was not able to find any detailed figures on USA tire sales by type, but I'll bet my 2% figure isn't far off as the fraction of total tire sales annually that are winter tires.
Matt
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Matt Whiting wrote:

Sales statistics are no indicator of need or efficacy, simply of buying trends. A good example of that is the large percentage of people that buy SUVs vs. how many actually have a real need for one. I could easily argue that less than 2% of drivers have any real need for an SUV. I could also reasonably argue that many - if not most - SUV buyers would be better off in many ways if they bought a car and a set of snow tires instead of an SUV.
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Brian Nystrom wrote:

Neither is your opinion about snow tires any indicator of need or efficiency or tread life.
Matt
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Matt Whiting wrote:

If it were merely an opinion, that would be true. I have the experiences to back it up.
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Brian Nystrom wrote:

Your experiences are only the basis for your opinion. Many more of us have experiences exactly counter to yours. I assert that the odds are very high then that the majority of us are correct and you are not when you assert that everyone needs winter tires.
Matt
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Maybe not. Back in the 50's, I remember putting full chains on my father's car for the first couple of days after a snow. Main roads were poorly plowed, side streets were not plowed at all. We lived in Philadelphia and a 6" snow was a lot.
I've since moved to Connecticut and 10" to 12" is common. I've never thought about snow tires. Why? They plow frequently, they plow well, they treat the streets. In the worst storms here, if I can get out of my driveway, I can get most anyplace. Like anyplace else, you have to use common sense and slow down in snow. If there is slick ice, no car is going to fare well, no matter what tire is on it.
--
Ed
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