You have summed up Brian pretty well. He reads what we write, but then claims we have made an argument we haven't made simply because he refuses to accept what we actually wrote. And I've posted several references supporting my position and he's posted none supporting his ... mainly because there is no data that supports his claim that everyone needs winter tires.
And he refuses to take his own argument to its logical conclusion which is that he should have both winter tires AND AWD if he is really concerned about the best possible winter performance.
If the main criteria is who can get to 20 mph the fastest then yes AWD is the answer. Unfortunately, there is more to driving then who can be quickest. I would rather be able to avoid an incident through steering or braking as opposed to out-accelerating it. There is nothing more satisfying then seeing an SUV, that has blown by me on a snow covered road, in the median a short time later. HMMM... guess that AWD/4WD didn't help you when you had to do something besides accelerate.
Fair enough, but you certainly are going out of your way to rationalize that decision and discourage others from trying winter tires.
More BS from you, Matt? My tires are wearing quite slowly. Please do explain why so we can all be enlightened.
Gee, no kidding? If it makes you feel any better, I drive the same distances year round, in the same manner and mostly highway miles. I typically use my summer tires ~20% more than my winter tires, which is nowhere near enough to explain the increased wear. Your blanket statement about tire wear is obviously, blatantly false, but you apparently can't deal with being wrong.
See the details above. You're wrong, get over it.
Please show me where I ever said that I wanted the "best possible performance". You made that up, which is pretty lame, Matt.
Everything to do with automotive performance is a compromise. When it comes to dealing with winter conditions, I draw the line at spending thousands of extra dollars for AWD or 4WD vehicles and thousands more in increased fuel, insurance and maintenance costs to gain a marginal improvement in acceleration traction in winter conditions (AWD/4WD does nothing to improve braking or cornering in slippery conditions). I'm far more concerned with being able to turn and stop than I am with accelerating or getting stuck (I've only gotten stuck - briefly - in snow once in the past 30 years, and that was because I tried to drive though 18" of it in an un-plowed parking lot). The poor handling and high center of gravity of many SUVs - particularly those that are truck based - is arguably more likely to cause an accident than their AWD/4WD systems are to prevent one. IMO, most SUV drivers would be better off with a car that inherently handles better, equipped with four winter tires. The environment would be better off too, but that's another discussion entirely.
You and I apparently draw the line at different point and that's fine. However, your fabrication of bogus disadvantages to winter tires in an effort to justify your position is just plain pathetic.
I understand that they accelerate faster, but what part of "Better traction won't guarantee shorter stops. Braking distances on ice were about the same for the all-wheel- and front-wheel-drive cars." didn't you understand? As far as I'm concerned, acceleration is a minor consideration and it's meaningless if you can't stop or turn. AWD/4WD does nothing to help either and 4WD systems can actually increase stopping distances and adversely affect cornering if the hubs are locked. Look it up, Matt.
You also ignored this paragraph: "Winter tires yielded the biggest snow-traction gain for the buck, however. Using them helped the front-drive cars reach 20 mph nearly 28 feet sooner than they did with all-season tires. Cost: about $400 for four winter tires plus another $200 or so for an extra set of wheel rims to ease the switch to winter tires."
Gee, I wonder who's been saying that all along?
Winter tires DO suffice and they perform better than ASRs, exactly as the article states. If I lived in an area where deep snow was common and AWD was truly needed (the risk of getting stuck was high), I'd own an AWD vehicle and as the article recommends, I'd equip it with snow tires, too. I don't seen any benefit to AWD with ASRs compared to front-drive with snow tires for the type of conditions I typically face. Acceleration is the least important factor in winter driving safety and again, you don't gain anything in stopping or cornering with AWD. The fact that it accelerates better creates a belief in drivers that traction is better than it actually is and the result is many of them get in trouble. OTOH, snow tires improve ALL aspects of performance in slippery conditions. Shame on Consumer Reports for not testing cornering and braking, as it would shed an entirely different light on the subject.
I've already pointed out numerous times that your blanket claim that winter tires wear faster is blatantly false. You also asserted that they were uncomfortably noisy, which is also false or at least misleading, as you were equating them to your truck tires, which are another animal entirely. You have fabricated statements and attributed them to me at least twice. I could go on, but I'm not going to waste my time, as it's evident that that you're willing to lie just to make a point and you have no credibility.
No it's just that AWD is NOT the solution to better winter driving.
If you read the OP he says a couple of things that should have been the logical extension of this thread.
1)"The vehicle has never behaved badly on snowy roads, or slushy roads, just ice." And then goes on about how the front end is heavy so in his estimation the car should be better on ice. This is one point of discussion - should a car that is front-end heavy be better on ice (my response is no why would you expect more mass to be better than less when the coefficient of friction is less?)
2)"Anybody out there have similar experience with Hyundai and ice?" I don't think there were many answers to this
3)"I run my tires high (35-40 psi), would lowering that help?" Was there any response to this?
I'm not going to get into your and Brian agreement to disagree. All I am saying is that for all-around winter driving where snow and ice are more than an occasional occurrence winter tires make a difference. Your post that I responded to even said the same "For maximum traction, equip it with winter tires. In less-snowy areas, front-wheel drive and a set of winter tires should suffice. Mount winter tires on all four wheels for balanced handling." Of course this didn't seem to make an impression on you so you needed to add "The only thing they left out is that all-season tires also suffice in most areas of the country." Well excuse me but we really aren't talking about most areas of the country. I thought that the discussion was about areas of the country with snow and ice conditions where WINTER (my emphasis) tires do make a difference that even your supporting quotes seem to say. Just because you perceive that someone is siding with Brian does not mean that it is Brian under an assumed name.
I don't know how you drive nor what kind of tires you have so I have no way to explain it.
So, as I expected, your mileage per year on your summer tires is NOT the same as your winter tires as you implied in your comparison. I provided several references that indicate that winter tires wear more rapidly than all-season tires. You have provided nothing but your opinion to the contrary. Sorry, that isn't even close to data.
You provided nothing but your opinion. Sorry, you are wrong, get over it.
You are again wrong on virtually all counts. The gain in acceleration and ability to go through deep snow provided by AWD is substantial as compared the winter tires on FWD. I believe it was the Consumer Reports link that gave the figures here, but I realize that you value your own opinion over real data.
It is also patently false to say that AWD/4WD does nothing to add cornering. A tire has only so much tractive force available to handle all demands placed on it: acceleration and maintaining forward speed (rearward force), cornering (side force) and deceleration (frontward force). A car that is driven by only two wheels is requiring those two tires to transfer both the full rearward force required to keep the car moving at a steady speed in a corner as well as the side force required. And since FWD cars typically have 60% or more of their weight on the driving wheels, this puts a substantial burden on those two tires. Transferring half of the required rearward force to the rear tires gives the front tires additional margin which provides more side force and thus more cornering capability. This is simple physics and well understood by most automotive engineers, rally car drivers, and people like me who drive FWD and 4WD vehicles every week all winter long.
You are mostly correct with regard to braking, but even then not completely correct for two reasons:
Most AWD/4WD vehicles have a more favorable weight distribution as compared to FWD vehicles and the relatively greater weight on the rear wheels allows them to better share the braking force and thus deliver more braking force.
My 4WD truck has no ABS, but the direct connection at the transfer case coupled with the locking differential means that rear wheels won't lock up and skid until at least one front wheel is also locked. This is a great advantage over a RWD truck where the rear wheels can lock under very light braking effort when on slick roads. My truck thus stops much better in 4WD than in 2WD (which is RWD).
I have not asserted a single bogus disadvantage to winter tires. Some of the disadvantages they have are as follows and as documented in several independent links I have provided. You have provided NOT A SINGLE independent reference, just your opinion. The arrogance of that is astounding.
Some winter tire disadvantages:
Must make two extra tire changes each year or must buy an extra set of rims and make two wheel changes a year.
Poorer tread life.
Poorer performance on dry pavement (which is what exists MOST of the year even in the snow belt regions. In PA and NY, it is rare to have snow or ice on the public roads for more than a couple hours after a storm is over. Given that most snow storms last less than 24 hours, that means maybe 26 hours of snowy/slushy roads per storm. Given that we get at most one snow per week on average, and typically more like one every 2-4 weeks, that means that the conditions where winter tires excel exist for at most 26/168 = 15% of the time and more typically 5% of the time. I simply choose to use tires that perform better 95% of the time rather than 5% of the time. Pretty simple logic, eh? :-)
So, which of the above is bogus? And it only counts if you can provide a legitimate and independent reference that refutes what I wrote. The "it is bogus because I say it is bogus" line or argument simply carries no weight.
If I can't get out of my driveway, then stopping is irrelevant. I just gave you a long post detailing when AWD helps and when it doesn't, and it helps in almost every condition except braking. However, 4WD can even help in braking.
Why do you want me to do your homework for you? Couldn't find it either and hoping my search skills are better than yours? :-)
I didn't ignore and had no reason to. I agree with it. I've simply said that most people don't NEED more traction and thus ANY additional cost is a waste of money. Moreover, winter tires are WORSE in the conditions that prevail MOST of the time - dry roads.
Acceleration may be the least important parameter purely for safety, but that isn't true for utility. If I can't get out of my driveway and up the hills, then being able to stop isn't even a consideration. And I handle the stopping very simply by not following too closely. I've driven in winter conditions for more than 30 years with ASR tires and have never rear-ended another vehicle or hit something because I couldn't stop in time.
It sure beats your "I'm Brian and this is my opinion therefore it must be fact" line of argument. You have yet to provide a SINGLE independent reference in support of any of your claims. I rest my case.
Actually, I was a very good member of my high school debate team. Then again, in a real debate your "it is true because I say it is true" line of argument simply isn't accepted. Only independent references are acceptable. It is obviously that you weren't even on a debate team in high school.
I posted references that state that winter tires wear more rapidly than ASRs. Where is your reference that they don't?
I said they were noisy on my truck and they are and I can find references to noise as well, but since you don't accept any facts that conflict with your opinion, I'm done doing your homework for you.
The explanation is simple, the winter tires are more durable. I doubt that's the case in every comparison of ASRs and winter tires, but it clearly illustrates that your contention that winter tires wear rapidly is wrong.
You really are hopeless, Matt. I've given you detailed information that refutes your assertion and you still won't give up. I could easily have kept that to myself if I wanted to be deceptive like you, but I'm not like that.
No Matt, I've got tires that prove you're wrong. That's not an opinion, it's clear evidence. If nothing else, watching you grasping at straws and destroying your credibility is somewhat entertaining, if a little sad.
Here's a link to a Car and Driver article that clearly states that snow tires provide a bigger advantage in snow than AWD/4WD:
formatting link
Frankly, I trust them more than Comsumer Reports when it comes to cars.
As for real data, you obviously wouldn't know it if it bit you in the ass, Matt. ;-)
And when you're rolling through a corner, there is little or no tractive or braking force being transferred.
You need to go back to physics 101, Matt. In slippery conditions, the differences you're talking about are tiny. Your ARSs will slip before snow tires will and AWD/4WD is never going to be able to make up the traction difference.
Regardless of the MINOR difference in weight distribution, the front tires are still going to bear ~70-75% of the braking load. Once again, the superior traction of snow tires will trump the theoretical improvement from a slight difference in weight distribution. You're still grasping at straws, Matt.
We're not talking about trucks, Matt. You're changing the subject again. But since we're on it, your plow-equipped truck has far WORSE weight distribution than a front-drive car or rear drive truck. I wonder what effect that will have... (I can't wait to see what you make up next.
I put mine on rims, which is the most sensible thing to do. I change them twice per year (as I stated before), which is when they're due to be rotated anyway. There's no disadvantage at all beyond the initial cost of the rims. Having snow tires saves wear on more expensive summer tires, so over a few years, the cost of the wheels will be amortized.
Wrong. How many times are we going to go over this same ground? I have the evidence that proves you wrong. End of story.
Some winter tires do have less dry traction than some ASRs, but making another blanket statement is likely to come back to haunt you, Matt (some ASRs just plain suck at everything). For the way I drive, it makes no difference. I have never had a problem stopping with them on dry pavement and the only thing I notice is that they handle slightly differently, which I adjust to in about five minutes. Just for laughs, I have pushed them to their cornering limits and they actually break loose more gradually and predictably than my summer tires, though at a slightly lower cornering speed (which is what one would expect of narrower tires with a higher aspect ratio). While they certainly aren't necessary on dry roads, I love 'em every time I drive in snow, which has been rather frequently this winter.
You are completely hopeless, Matt. If you're ever in the neighborhood of southern NH in the winter, I'll be glad to give you a demonstration that proves your assertions are nonsense. Not that you'll ever admit it...
- You choose to drive a front-drive car, rather than AWD/4WD AND
- You choose to use tires that provide inferior traction to snow tires
It seems to me like you're saying one thing and doing another, Matt. I believe they call that "hypocrisy".
Neither have I. So what? All that means is that we're both driving within the ability of our vehicles to handle the conditions. Snow tires provide an extra margin in the case of unexpected circumstances and I'm glad to have it. I've driven relatively comfortably through conditions where other vehicles around me were struggling and in some cases literally sliding off the road. I'll bet that if I offered them snow tires, they would have taken them in a heartbeat. ;-)
Yeah, that will be the day. Matt, I have the evidence that proves you wrong right on my car. I have direct experience with both types of tires on multiple vehicles. You call it "opinion", I call it fact, as I've lived it. You've never done any of it and you haven't provided a single test that compares snow tires and ASRs back to back. The articles you posted actually support my position more than your own, but you simply ignore those parts, as others here have pointed out. If there's anyone here who's arguing strictly on opinion, it's YOU, Matt.
The only place that's been done here is in your mind, Matt. I have never once said anything of the kind.
Let's see. You've got a pre-determined bias and you completely ignore all evidence to the contrary, as others have pointed out. You fabricate issues and you blatantly mis-state your opponent's position, which simply undermines your own credibility and highlights your desperation. You divert the subject when you get cornered by your own lies, hypocrisy and fabrications. If that's what you call a debate, you couldn't debate your way out of a paper bag. I hope you don't have to make a living convincing people to believe you. Then again, you sound a lot like a politician...
It's a little too warm for that where I am at the moment. ;-)
While it's been fun watching Matt flounder around, I've wasted way too many keystokes on this silliness and this thread stopped being useful for anything other than entertainment long ago. I've made my points and I'm done with it. Whoever is still around can breathe a sigh of relief. :-)
MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.