Hyundai will take blow by China competition

Hyundai made a good 5 year entrace internationally...but in 1-2 years...many china cars will come to international markets...will hyundai go out of business? kia is only good because price is low..but
chinese cars even lower..
www.chinacarforums.com
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If you know german read this: http://www.adac.de/Tests/Crash_Tests/jiangling_landwind/default.asp?TL=2
Ash wrote:

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Well, IMHO, the OP is just trying to drive traffic to his web site, but I got curious and my German is not that good, so I went searching. Eeee!
http://paultan.org/archives/2005/10/07/jiangling-landwind-x6-crash-test-passenger-cabin /
http://paultan.org/archives/2005/09/30/jiangling-landwind-x6-gets-zero-in-crash-test /
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangling_Motors_Landwind
Sinan
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this gives a whole new meaning to... a great bang, for your buck!
my German is horrible..achtung! however, courtesy of freetranslation.com.
The first car out of China on the German market, when full terrain vehicle to the bargain price of well 15,000 Euros. Can one buy so something? To test an occasion for the ADAC, the China-import. In the ADAC-Crashtest with 64 km/h frontal and 50 km/h of Seitenaufprall the "country wind" showed that it has yet considerable need to catch up in the field of the passive security. That strongly did not shape passenger cell and that therewith unakzeptable "over living space", the insufficient Airbag-equipment as well as the weak side protection correspond to the state of the technology.
Result injury risk FrontalcrashSeitencrash KindersicherheitEU-Zulassungsverfahren without Crashtest? Videos Result
The Jiangling country wind shows considerable weakness in the ADAC-Crashtest in spite of Fahrerairbag. The parts strongly penetrating into the vehicle (steering wheel, instruments chalkboard and front wheel) can evoke heaviest until deadly injuries, what leads to the devaluation. Serious construction mistakes lead to an unbearable reduction of the over living space. With this result becomes acknowledged explained has itself clear, that the firm JMC not yet with that in Europe security standards.
The "country wind" in the ADAC of car test: go on our cars test-side in the selection box to the manufacturer "Jiangling". More..
Injury risk Frontalcrash
VergrernVergrern
In the Frontalcrash, the danger of deadly head injuries exists through the extremely strongly penetrating steering wheel. , That penetrating instruments chalkboard and the totally destroyed foot room must be reckoned with heaviest bruises and injuries in the breast area, basin area as well as leg area also by the kollabierende passenger cell. The stuck door impedes the rescue of the driver in addition because it can be broken open only with tool.
Seitencrash
In the Seitencrash, the driver head against the hard roof beam strikes - that means heavy head injuries. The strongly penetrating side wall causes breast injuries. The Jiangling country wind does not control Seitenairbags or special metal strengthenings in the doors, that could diminish these loads.
Children security
The tests became with highchair selected by the ADAC for a 1 1/2- and 3-year-old child carried out: Britax Roman baby safe plus and Britax Roman King TS plus. They offer a good protection for the children. On the other hand there are some Mngel in the estimation of the children security in the vehicle. So the subject of children security is not itemized in the operation instructions and the Gurtegeometrie does not fulfill the European requests: in many highchairs, it can come therefore as a result of the too long Gurtpeitschen to installation problems.
EU allowance procedure without Crashtest?
Car models must fulfill an entire row at building directions so that they are allowance capable. In addition also proofs belong over the exhaust fume behavior as well as a frontal-Crash. No rule without exception: in little series (single-allowance) the EU-legislation forgoes until now Crash-proofs. Therefrom also the country wind profited - this hurdle would not have created it namely. Must such slip holes in the allowance procedure, so the ADAC in an EU-conference in Brussels, unconditionally plugged become. The EU took up the subject meanwhile, stand the mentioned facilitations for single allowances now on the test bed. Wherewith country wind would be allowed to blow and Co in the future a stronger breeze contrary to.
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well its pretty much a direct copy of a isuzu rodeo so im not supprised. it to scores lowsey...

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yeah and far even lower qulaity than all modern, car manufatures. I highly doubt hyundai will go out of business any time soon. CHINA has a lot to go, as far as "QUALITY" " they" are flooding the US (and a lot of other Countris) market with cheap, crappy quality motorcylces, scooters, consumer electronics, etc, etc, etc... I dont like it, specially from a communist run (socialist, or whatever you want to call it..) Government.
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wrote:

http://www.visionaryvehicles.com/ are the guys to look out for from China. They are well aware that it took Hyundai 15 years to gain credibility in the US. They aim to do it in 5 or less.
I'm not sure what is meant by "cheap crappy quality" from China. Look at what the "craftsmen" of the UAW turn out. When you have workers making darn near 6 figures doing work that in any other industry would be considered semi-skilled, it's a formula for corporate failure. Non US cars have long lost the stigma of year ago.
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highly
cheap,
etc...
you
The difference between the Chinese and UAW cars is the UAW cars don't self destruct upon impact.
Maybe that IS the chinese government standard for crash test, because they have population control to consider...
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"cheap crappy quality" =planned or not, obsolescence.
That's why GM and Ford are loosing out on market share while Hyundai builds a billion dollar plant in Alabama.
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Raoul wrote:

How much have you dealt with Chinese-made auto parts? I've had wheel bearings that self-destruct in a few thousand miles, rotors that warp if you look at them sideways, fuel filters that won't seal, and engine mounts with the holes drilled with the wrong spacing, for starters. A friend who works for an automotive brake company tested new Chinese brake calipers, and found they leaked through the porous castings.
Here are sample postings (mostly from rec.autos.tech) I've collected over the last few years from engineers that have had to deal with trying to get quality products out of Chinese factories:
=========== Begin Chinese Manufacturing Anecdotes =================== Suppliers in china.... they would cut every corner, cheat every process, and turn out crap despite the best efforts of engineers. If it was made when the US engineer was sitting there watching it would be decent. A week or two after he returned home, crap again.
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Absolutely right. Without constant, step-by-step, vigilant Western babysitting, material and process specs simply do not get followed.
Corners get cut, friend-of-friend-of-friend supply chains find profit in supplying cheaper-than-spec materials and signing off on them as to-spec materials, and test results and certifications get falsified. Western "quality" is simply not present as a concept. That doesn't mean these are bad people (I'm sure many of the political prisoners and 7-year-olds working at forced labour in China are *very* good people), just that this is not a part of their culture. Just as the Swedes, Germans and Swiss have a well-deserved reputation of being obsessive about quality, other cultures are at the opposite end of the spectrum. The Western babysitting necessary to achieve Western quality eats up the labour savings, and thensome. The savings is gained back by flooding the Western market with theChinese crap so that nothing else can compete on a volume/price basis and everything *but* the crap gets choked out of the marketplace.
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Here is a typical event in a factory located in China durring a critical program phase, based on real events.
US Engineer: Where are the gage pins?
QC person: what? don't know.
US Engineer: The pins used to measure gaps.
QC person: ask <insert one of the three names of another chinese worker>
Note: In china, it appears that people have three names. A formal chinese name, A shortened chinese name, and a westernized name. All are used interchangabily. This can be very confusing at times.
US Engineer: Where are the gage pins?
QC Person 2: Gage... don't know.
US Engineer: What's in that cabinet?
QC Person 2: Don't have key.
US Engineer: <calls security, spends alot of time finding the person with the key>
QC Person 2: Bus Leave, time to go. <leaves for home>
US Engineer: <finally gets cabinet open, even if breaking it or picking the lock, finding no pins>
US Engineer: <Searches for more people that might help>
QC Person 3: <spends time with engineer searching and trying to understand what the American is looking for>
QC Person 4: <figures out what Gage Pins are, goes into a dusty corner and pulls out the case from another locked area that takes yet more time to find the key>
US Engineer: <Blows dust off the case, opens it, takes out brand new pins and begins to measure parts>
US Engineer: <Reports findings and recommended action>
Basically, in china, quality checking equipment is not available. If it is available it is locked up (and no one can use it) because someone will steal it, or not used because it is too much effort or not even understood. Automation, fixtures, etc are just about impossible to get, put in use, even if the US engineer has them made and sent over. I've got other stories concerning china, some are even more humorous.
It's hard to understand just how bad manufacturing is over there until dealing with it personally. I know I didn't.
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Yep. This is commonplace and typical. When I was the managing technologist for a line of headlamps, trying to get product quality, performance and durability *UP* to the bottom of the permissible (North American) specs, we ran into virtually the same thing again and again. Another aspect was the tests. I'd send units for testing in a first-world lab (North America or Europe...would've happily used one in Japan or Australia, but there was no reason to do so), and they'd fail spectacularly. I'd show the test results to the Chinese/Taiwanese production people and they'd go through the motions of listening and taking notes. The "fix" was invariably to produce their own "tests", which the same lamps would pass with flying colours. Product won't pass the test? Cheat on the test. That's how it was done.
It is a good point that management shares a hefty chunk of the blame here, for pretending not to see the realities behind 3rd-world manufacturing's attractive facade of low cost. It was flatly not possible to get the needed quality or performance in this product with the Chinese/Taiwanese producers, and despite being shown this in painstaking detail, management would not authorize a re-shop of production and instead moved to submit the falsified tests to the government and the buyer as certifiaction documents. This was inconsistent with my own ethics, so I resigned the position.
The lamps are on the market.
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I've seen that, but I can also one up it. They can't follow test instructions either. I delt with a reliability lab in china and one on sight where I worked. We had a running joke about the <chinese city> factor. Multiply the number of failures in the US lab by X and that is the greater number of failures found in China lab. Why? It has to do with internal politics where they were trying to get a design center there and the product was designed in the US. Products designed in Asia would have a huge number of failures in the US lab, but passed in china. I knew the testing engineer well and he was extremely consistant with his method. Having personally watched the tests myself as well.
Dealing with it day in day out, I was just glad we weren't making any thing safety related and had to make fun of it just to get through the day.
Once one of the 'don't have the key' road block people visited our facility for some reason. One of the engineers in the group treated him the same way when presented with a locked cabinet. It was too funny. Guy from the China factory didn't even get it.
Also, I spent quite a bit of time living/working in both China and Hong Kong and the stories about the non-existent QC and systemic fudging of test/quality data are sadly true. Short of packing up and leaving, the foreign investor/buyer has little recourse as the court systems in China are a complete and utter sham. I suspect this quality issue isn't going to go away until there is some semblance of accountability in the country. Without even the window dressings of a usable court system, this just isn't going to happen.
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In my former engineering group this stuff became running jokes. For plastic resins we would make fun of the chinese molders and their claims of two resins being the 'same thing'. All their inspection reports weren't even worth reading. I got yelled at once for repeating another engineer's saying that they have a tolerance wheel. The parts don't get mesured, they just have a wheel of in-spec values and spin it to produce their quality reports. Lies all lies in those reports, not even worth the paper they were written on most of the time. Standing up and demanding that they get parts in spec in critical areas is only politically damaging to the design engineer in a large US corporation.
A job is a job in china. It's not like they are going to get fired. Use a mind set of being extremely underpaid, no hope of advancement, being shot or imprisoned for speaking up, and there you have it. The culture where crap is produced. It happens in similiar fashion in US corporations where people fear for their jobs and political appearances so they never speak up about what they know better on.
It's what I called ledger theory. The cost of engineers babysitting and dealing with the constant, never ending problems was on a different ledger than the conversion costs at the factory or the part costs from the suppliers. The result at major US corporations seems to be one of just hiring engineers in China to do the design work. Technical knowledege is losing value in the USA at a great rate. It's all management that is cared about. Someone making phone calls to have things done on time. The fact it's crap doesn't matter.
And that's the US consumer who doesn't know the difference between what's good and what's crap. Short-sided price based decisions.
============ End Chinese Manufacturing Anecdotes ==================== I shudder to think of what kind of "reliability" we'll see in these Chinese cars. Probably will make those much-maligned early Hyundai models look rock-solid in comparison!
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The company says it's trying to emulate German engineering. Big mistake!
"German quality" is nothing more than a reputation,,, a reputation no longer deserved. Compared to Detroit Iron of the 70's and 80's, German quality meant something. Compared to current Japanese quality, they fall far short.
German *design is fine for the most part. The cars look and perform great. However, they tend to choose poorly suited materials to execute their otherwise great designs. All the Chinese have to do is check the various reliability ratings to see that Japanese vehicles would be a much smarter model for them to emulate.
Hyundai has pumped billions into the USA economy, and I consider their cars to be practically an American brand. I like their approach to price control, a great part of which is a huge, super-modern, super-efficient assembly plant.
If the Chinese do as Hyundai, I would be fine with purchasing one of their cars (if the quality were there). However, I seriously doubt the Chinese will produce parts or assemble in the USA. If they do, there goes the price advantage. I think their whole reason for Chinese entry into auto manufacturing is to capitalize on the large price advantage they could offer.
--
Bob

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wrote:

I somewhat agree about German quality. My company produces equipment used for quality control by every major car maker with a presence in the USA, ranging from BMW & Mercedes to Hyundai's new plant. There is a definite difference in how the use of our stuff is treated by Ford/GM/Daimler-Chrysler than the three companies above. With the "Big 3" outfits, there has been vandalism to keep from having to make measurements.
Those that buy the Chinese cars in the first couple of years will probably have a lot of problems, but I think quality is going to improve dramatically after the manufacturer gets hosed in the initial reviews
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wrote:

Heck, "German quality" today is less than American or Korean quality as well. BMW routinely ranks near the bottom of reliability ratings.
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yeah and far even lower quality than all modern, car manufactures. I highly doubt Hyundai will go out of business any time soon. GM and Ford will see more cuts than Hyundai (IMHO) CHINA has a lot to go, as far as "QUALITY" " they" are flooding the US (and a lot of other Countries) market with cheap, crappy, motorcycles, scooters, consumer electronics, etc, etc, etc... I don't like it, specially from a communist run (socialist, or whatever you want to call it..) Government.
ANYWAY, Hyundai spent over a billion US dollars in a modern plant in Alabama. I think they know what they are doing.
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re: China to soon export cars to U.S.
The thread is an interesting discussion, and I'll be re-reading it a couple of times.
There is a recent article in the NEW YORK TIMES business section about a Brazilian car factory being dismantled & taken piece-by-piece to China.
Supposedly, a $30,000 U.S. Dollars (retail?) Brazil-made/assembled car can be sold by China for $15,000.
China either inflates its currency's value or "free trade" is bye-byuh--something's gotta give.
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