Re: Oil pressure relief plunger access -- 2004 Santa Fe 3.5L

I've not taken one of these apart, nor do I recall whether the relief plunger bolt is accessible without removing the oil pan. On the other hand, it should be a simple matter to find out. The oil pump bolts on the front of the engine just behind the crankshaft pulley. Look at the bottom of the aluminum assembly there to see whether the bolt is accessible. If not, you'll need to remove the oil pan (no fun).

Thanks hyundaitech.

Here's the latest:

I decided to try to see if I can find the relief plunger bolt and gain access to it myself. I took off the plastic shield that covers that bottom of the vehicle under the engine. Then I took off the vertical plastic shield that covers the pulleys etc. Then, going by the oil pump diagrams that I found online and on the

service manual diagrams, I tried to locate the relief plunger bolt (I think they call it the "oil pressure relief valve plug"). I thought I saw what must be it, but before doing anything more, I went inside and special-ordered an oil pressure relief valve plunger, spring, and plug (3 parts, about $13 for all three pieces) from a Hyundai dealership. The parts will be here on Thursday or Friday of this week. The I got the bright idea that maybe I can just try taking off what I hoped was the oil pressure relief valve plug (bolt) to see if I could take out the spring and plunger and see what shape they are in, clean them up, etc.

Here are two photos of what I saw from underneath (same 2 photos but in 2 different formats):

The oil filter is blue and on the left, and the view shows the blue oil filter hanging down, plus the belt and pulleys that are on the front of the engine.

In the second photo, the bolt that I thought was the relief bolt/plug is pretty much dead center in the photo -- and the bolt goes up into what I assumed would be the oil pump behind the pulley that is in the center.

But, when I took the bolt out, it seemed like it must be the wrong bolt. It is about 2-1/2 to 3 inches long, and when I took it out, nothing happened -- no oil came out, no springs or plunges came out -- nothing. I have no idea what the bolt is for, but just in case it was in fact the relief valve bolt, tried pushing a wire up into the hole. I thought maybe that would press on the spring or plunger or whatever, but nothing happened. So, I figured I must have the wrong bolt, and I put it back where it was.

Looking at the oil pan, it looked like it would be too hard for to get off due to something else being in the way of part of it -- some kind of manifold or something that heads toward the back of the vehicle. At that point, I decided I don't know enough of what I am doing so my plan is (was) to take it to the dealership, tell them the symptoms, and ask them to see if they can figure out what the problem is and what it would take to fix it.

Then I drove the vehicle a couple of miles and the strangest thing happened -- right from the beginning there was no oil light on, and the loud valve tapping-like sound that I was hearing before was gone. A little later, the oil light would flicker just a little when at idle speed, but went off with any increase in RPM's -- and there was still no valve clatter/noise. Then, when I got home, I tried revving the engine up to high RPM's thinking that maybe that would free up the plunger and the original problem came back right away -- noisy valve tapping/clatter and the oil light comes on almost continuously once again.

So, now I don't know what is going on. I had this feeling that somehow maybe I was in fact messing with the plunger even though no oil came out, no spring came out, and even though the bolt was almost 3 inches (which is not what the "plug" looks like on the diagrams.

My plan now is to probably see what happens tomorrow, then maybe pick up the $13 worth of parts that I ordered that will be here on Thursday or Friday, and see what they look like. Maybe by seeing the actual parts, I'll have a better idea of what to look for -- but I doubt it. And, when picking up the parts, maybe I'll see if I can get them to take a look at the vehicle and see if they can diagnose the problem.

Just one other thought:

Is it possible that the intake screen (or whatever it is called) inside the oil pan is clogged and that keeps the oil from pumping up into the engine, which in turn causes the valve tapping/clatter and the oil light to come on?

Something is causing the oil pressure to be low whether it is gunk, a weak pump, a pressure relief valve, or oil needing to be changed. That flickering light is annoying, I know. My aircooled bug does that at idle after I have driven it too hard at highway speeds for over 1/2 hr. Sort of like the car is protesting. Good luck.

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I've not taken one of these apart, nor do I recall whether the relief plunger bolt is accessible without removing the oil pan. On the other hand, it should be a simple matter to find out. The oil pump bolts on the front of the engine just behind the crankshaft pulley. Look at the bottom of the aluminum assembly there to see whether the bolt is accessible. If not, you'll need to remove the oil pan (no fun).

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Here's where things stand as of today:

I foolishly decided to try taking off the lower oil pan over the weekend to see if I could find and replace the oil pressure relief valve plunger, spring, and plug. It was a huge job and I never should have attempted it. After taking off the lower oil pan (which requires lowering the exhaust pipe first), I found out that I still could not access the oil pressure relief valve mechanism. I then had to take off the upper oil pan (which also requires removing the starter motor, oil filter, and a bolt that holds the oil dipstick to the engine). Bad idea. This was a major project, but I did it and I finally had access to the oil pressure relief valve mechanism. The original parts seemed to be working okay but I replaced them with the new parts that I had bought anyway. Then I put everything back together. The whole job took about 12 to 13 hours of hard, hard work. After finally getting everything back together -- no change; same symptoms; oil pressure light still coming on and valve tapping noises still there.

Then I took it to a Hyundai dealership, and for $105 ($93 with a "customer discount" they gave me), they diagnosed the problem. Bad news. They said the oil pressure is low but they asked when I last changed the oil. Unfortunately, I had to admit that I am one of those people who rarely changes the oil. They said that it appears that due to the lack of oil changes the oil in the engine kept breaking down and deteriorated into hard black sludge throughout the engine. They said that they didn't want to spend my money replacing the oil pump only to find out that the engine oil circulation system is so blocked up that the problem would not be corrected. They said that basically I need to replace the engine. For a used engine with 71,000 miles on it, the cost would be about $4,200 installed -- not a worthwhile project on a 2004 Santa Fe. Looks like its time to get a new (or slightly used) Santa Fe that is still under warranty.

So, I went to pick up the vehicle, and between the time of my first conversation with them and the time when I got there to pick it up, they had also removed the valve covers to take a look. They took a photo and gave me a copy to take with me. It looked awful -- all just thick gunked up hard black crusted crud all over the valves, cams, etc.

We did talk about the possibility of them trying to clean the sludge and do some kind of engine flush or cleanout, but they said that probably wouldn't work, and even if they could clean it out, the bearing seals may already be bad and could cause the oil pressure to still be low.

Now I know I need another vehicle. And now I know I have a vehicle that has hardly any value in its present condition. Since I know that my present vehicle is pretty much a goner already, I may just try goofing around on my own and taking the valve covers off and trying to clean out as much sludge as possible on my own just to see what happens. It will depend, in part, on how hard it is to get the valve covers off and attempt this. And, it will depend on whether I can find any information online and elsewhere about ways to try to clean out sludge within the engine system.

Obviously, I caused the problem by not changing the oil as I should have been doing. I always thought that not changing the oil just tended to make the parts in the engine wear a little faster. But I didn't know that not changing the oil could cause the oil to break down and become the hard black crusted sludge/crap that is now all inside my car's engine. Oops.

Thanks for the update. Sorry to hear about the engine though.

My wife insisted we buy a used Honda Accord a few years ago that the dealer kept TRYING to NOT sell us. (we'd purchased used vehicles from him before) Later, when I had the valve covers off I discovered the same sort of gunk. It was so deep/bad that there were little wells around each valve spring. I made the mistake you are considering: cleaning it out. Problem, you can't get it all out.... maybe if you plug the holes going down to the pan and pour a few gallons of oil or better yet tranny fluid through afterwards to flush things out you MAY get lucky. A few months after cleaning out and trying to catch all of the gunk, my daughter was driving it one day and "the engine stopped". The overhead cam had gotten oil starved and locked up with such force that it sheared the shaft from the timing gear. I found a local place that sells used engines for various cars with a warranty. I found a suitable Honda engine, put it in (after replacing seals, timing belt, and swapping the torque converter) and the car ran great. Sold it a year later. The cost for the engine, belts, etc was about $1200 I think. Doing the labor yourself saves a lot of money. Good luck!

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Thanks for the info. Changing the engine myself is definitely out of my league. One thing that I may check out is the possibility of selling it to someone on Craigslist and letting them know up front that it needs a new engine etc. Maybe someone has a wreck with a good engine and would want to put their engine into my vehicle which -- except for the engine -- is in very good condition. But, I'm sure it won't be worth much to anyone.

With that in mind, I may still try goofing around trying to clean up what's there and see what happens. I know there is a good chance that after doing that I'll still end up with a vehicle that isn't worth much.

I have also been looking at "engine flush" machines online today just to see what they are about. The way the website describes it, the flush is done without the engine running and supposedly the crud that gets freed up gets vacuumed out of the pan rather than getting sucked back up into the engine. I think that may be what the Hyundai dealership was telling me that they "could" do, if I wanted to, but that they didn't recommend doing it.

Meanwhile, I have an old pickup truck that I can drive around while I figure out buying a replacement vehicle.

An interesting thing that I learned yesterday was that if I had bought my used Hyundai through a Hyundai dealership (rather than through a non-Hyundai dealership where I did buy it), it would have come with a 10-year 100,000 mile warranty instead of the 5-year 60,000 mile warranty that I inherited as a second owner. Theoretically, that would have meant that my engine would have been covered by the warranty since it is a 2004 and has 93,400 miles on it. But, the service person explained that the warranty would have been voided in my case because I didn't have it properly serviced and maintained (a.k.a. regular oil changes etc.); and once they saw what they saw under the valve covers they would know that I had not maintained the vehicle. Then again, if I did maintain it properly, it probably wouldn't have needed a new engine so I wouldn't have needed to use the warranty anyway.

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What is the car worth if it was running OK? What is the cost of engine rebuild/replacement?

I was in a similar situation about 20+ years ago with an Old Cutlass. It was about $1000 for a rebuild at the time, but the car was worth $50 scrap with no engine, $3000 with a good engine. It was worth fixing and it lasted me another 50,000 miles.

You may want to check a couple of local shops and see what they would charge you to do the work.

Do a Google search.

I'm curious, how often (if ever) did you change the oil? I shoot for

5,000 miles but could easily go 7500 with my driving. That is by the book.

KWW wrote:

When I think about it, I am not completely sure that I got that 10-year

100,000 mile warranty information correct. That's what the sales manager told me over the phone. I had told him that I was planning on buying another used Santa Fe, either through a Hyundai dealership or elsewhere. He said that one difference is that if I buy a "Hyundai certified pre-owned vehicle" through a Hyundai dealership it comes with the 10-year 100,000 mile warranty, but I wouldn't get that if I bought it anywhere else. On the other hand, a friend of mine traded in a Sonata bought a used Azera through the same dealership and I was with him when he did the final write-up of the deal. I know he ended up buying a Hyundai extended warranty plan. He could have bought a third party extended warranty plan that they offered for a little less money, but he wanted the Hyundai plan. I thought I remember that plan being a "bumper-to-bumper" plan and maybe was more inclusive than the engine and transmission coverage that is in the 10-year 100,000 mile warranty.

So, maybe what the sales manager told me is correct, or maybe there is more to it that I would find out when I actually signed a deal on a used Santa Fe. I don't know all of the details.

Over the phone, the sales manager said that my year, make, and model running and in good condition would have a wholesale value of around $4,500 - $5,000. I think he meant that's what they would get if they wholesaled it.

He said if it is running, but in its present condition (meaning significant engine problems or whatever), and as long as it could "drive in the lane" it might wholesale for about $1,000 - $2,000. He said "drive in the lane" means they can drive it up onto the car carrier truck that takes it away and drive it into the lane where they sell them wholesale at auction.

He said if it is not drivable, the wholesale value is basically just the junk metal value -- my guess being maybe up to $500.

The vehicle is a 2004 Hyundai Santa Fe GLS Utility 3.5L Auto 4WD 6 Cyl 4 doors with 93,500 miles.

I don't know the retail value, but when I looked it up online Kelly Blue Book said the trade-in value in fair condition would be about $5,300 and in good condition would be about $6,100. The retail value if sold privately would be about $7,450 in fair condition, and $8,340 in good condition.

Consumer Reports said the average trade-in value would be about $7,500 and the average price to buy it from a dealer would be about $9,700.

The KBB and Consumer Reports values seem too high to me, but I don't know if they are high or not.

The service manager at the dealership said he could get a used 3.5L engine with 71,000 miles on it and the installed cost would be about $4,200. And, I think he said he could get a used 3.5L engine with about 118,000 miles on it and the installed cost would be more like $2,400(?).

I hadn't thought about the possibility of having this engine rebuilt, especially since I don't know what may be wrong with it. I don't know what may have been damaged so far, if anything, due to the oil crud issue.

That's a good idea, both for the rebuild idea or the idea of having a used engine put in by a local shop.

I'll definitely do the searches and see what I can find out.

Unfortunately, I almost never did an oil change. The service manager at the dealership said that some people just add oil when it gets a little low and don't do the oil changes. That's me, although not any more now that I know better. I had work done on the vehicle at 77,000 miles and they did an oil change then, but nothing since then. I bought the vehicle with about 24,000 miles on it and I don't remember ever doing an oil change on it before the one that was done at 77,000 miles. Sad, but true.

I have also been reading and hearing (for the first time) that synthetic oil doesn't break down like regular oil and doesn't create the kind of crud in the that I created through neglect. And, I didn't know until now that people can just switch any vehicle over to synthetic oil if they want. I thought that only certain engines take synthetic oil and other engines take regular oil.

Thanks for all of your suggestions and feedback.

I see three choices.

Run it until it stops and junk it. You get pennies on the dollar

Take it to another car dealer while still running and see what you can get for a trade-in. Take anything they offer and then run away fast.

Rebuild the engine or buy a rebuilt. It has been years since I've done that so I'm not up on prices, but given the retail value, it would be a $mart move. For a few thousand dollars, you end up with a car that has a value of $7500 or more.

I've heard of people getting good deals from junk yards. My grandson recently bought an engine for a Mitsubishi for $500 with a 30 day guarantee. About four years ago, someone in work had a used engine installed for that much into an old Grand Prix.

I found this. 3.5 engines for less that 2k

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I numbered the choices that you mentioned.

I definitely don't want to do option 1. But, even if the engine did die, I could always still do Options 3 or 4 -- meaning have another engine put in.

Option 2 may be a possibility, but it depends on what I find out regarding Options 3 and 4.

Options 3 and 4 are both good possibilities, depending on what I find in terms of the price of engines (rebuilt or just used) and the labor costs involved. If some of the numbers that I am seeing are correct, it may end up making sense to do one of these two options.

Another option that I plan on trying first is for me to try taking off the valve covers and cleaning out all of the crud that I can to the best of my ability and see what happens. And, maybe do some cleanout of the lower oil pan etc.

I found two YouTube videos that describe what I have in mind, except that I don't think that I will be making any attempt to remove the camshaft etc. That would involve the timing belt and is something that I think would be too complicated for me and could easily cause me to destroy the engine by messing up the timing.

If I do the cleanout process, I know it may not fix the problem, but it looks like something that I can do on my own time without too much trouble. It just looks like it would be time consuming and messy, but not too hard to do. And, I guess the worst that would happen is that it doesn't work and I am in the same position that I am in now.

Here are the two YouTube videos that I found:

.

Yes, that may be what they meant -- the 10-year 100,000 mile warranty only on their Hyundai certified pre-owned vehicles.

True.

I think that when I try the cleanout process that I described in another post, even if it seems to work, there could still be the possibility of something later breaking loose and plugging up a port and wrecking the engine.

I did read about the transmission fluid idea, but I think my situation is too far gone to hope for just a flush-out being able to resolve the problem. Nevertheless, I am doing a brief Motor Flush process now while the car is sitting next to my house before I start the under-the-valve-cover cleanout project. I added Motor Flush and I have been running in for 2 or 3 minutes a couple of times a day to see if that will circulate the Motor Flush and help pre-soften the crud that I will be attacking in the next phase of my cleanout effort. I probably shouldn't do this, but I added 2 cans of Motor Flush instead of the 1 can that is recommended. I am only running it at idle speed for 2 or 3 minutes at a time so it won't get too hot and I hopefully won't be pushing the limits on the bearing lubrication etc.

In case anyone is curious, here are a few photos of the crud in the engine.

The first one is actually a photo of the photo that the dealership took when they had the valve cover off. I haven't taken the valve cover off myself yet.

The next two photos are from below when I had the upper and lower oil pans off, and with the oil pressure relief valve plug removed.

Tom, Actually, that looks promising. I can't find a picture of the crud inside the valves of my daughter's Accord from years ago, but it was basically a red sand-looking crud that I had to chisel away. If you could flush it really well after cleaning it.... don't know if powerwashing at the end would just be a mess or what... and then flushing with some petrolium-based solvent, keep draining the pan, and then at the end remove them and clean them thoroughly, you might get the crud out, however I'd imagine you have a lot of wear in that engine! May be a lost cause due to that.

Good luck!

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