SOS to Hyundai Tech [engine rattle/ping, carbon on spark plugs; rear brake thumping]

Hi,
First off, I know this post looks long - my apologies! - but as you can see upon closer inspection I've broken the text into a lot of bullet points to make it an easy read.
General Question
With respect to the following two mechanical mysteries, am I too far along to file for Hyundai arbitration? Or might there be solutions?
Car Stats:
2001 Elantra GLS Automatic Stock everything Only OEM parts (including oil filters) ABS/TCS 4-wheel disc brakes
First Longstanding Problem:
An acceleration rattle started around 150-300 miles and is growing worse with time
This frog-in-the-throat sound takes place under acceleration and low RPMS (up to about 40mph - then it either goes away or engine noise drowns it out).
I hear no abnormal engine noise when completely stopped at a light.
This acceleration rattle lasts 10-20 minutes in duration, whereas it used to last less than 5 minutes.
The noise is worse when engine is cold or car was previously driven roughly 2-4 hours beforehand.
The sound seems louder in cool/damp weather [winter fuel blend????]
It is not so obvious in hot, dry summer weather [summe fuel blend????]
Gas brand and octane rating makes no difference [that I can tell]
I have a 2mpg drop in fuel efficiency (the car only makes about 20-21mpgs in city driving for past two years or so).
Just this past week: Dealer replaced OEM Spark Plugs with NKGs (same spec). Original plugs were carbon-fouled though there is less than 30K on odometer and these are supposed to last 100,000 miles (but car is 5yrs old so could this still be "normal"?). Dealer blames carbon deposits on bad gas, not on whatever causes the engine rattle or ping in the first place.
I've never seen a CEL entire time I've owned the car. Beginning to think one or more sensors don't "talk" to the computer since there is a problem everyone can hear yet it never trips a check engine light. Dealer seems to be of the general philosophy that if a check engine light isn't on, there is no problem. On the other hand, everyone who has heard the problem doesn't deny it (including the corporate rep).
Dealer efforts to fix or explain problem include: Heat sheild "tightened". "Cold selenoids are noisy" (tech tells me in 2001). Dealer finally agrees to measure valve clearance (first one in 2002 normal, second one in 2004 "out of spec", final one conducted the very next day by Hyundai corporate rep finds "no problem"). Next told that I am hearing lifters and this is a normal sound until oil gets from pan to lifters (true, I hear lifter noise but that lasts about a minute at startup whereas the other noise seems to be related to acceleration). Little over a year ago this same Hyundai rep checked my car's thrust washer/bearing (no sign of metal debris, no problem found (NPF). Hyundai Customer Service Hotline alerts me to Exhaust Manifold recall: Dealer checked but finds no sign of cracks so they did NOT replace exhaust manifold. Motor mount replaced over a year ago - no change or improvement on noise.
What I've done: Tried oil additive. Tried higher octane (a few years back - didn't notice an improvement). Tried gas additive - injector cleaner?-about two years ago (only resulted in rough idle and misfiring engine).Been using 10/40 oil instead of 10/30, which is what the dealer uses at oil changes.
My Impression
Based upon what I've been told about the condition of my spark plugs - despite only 30K on the odometer - it sounds like a case of "spark knock". I suspect either a bad knock sensor that the car's computer doesn't receive valid data from or a sticky valve lifter or bad valve guide. I've also heard, though, that a rattle or pinging type sound in the engine can come from the timing belt tensioner. It IS true that when I lift the hood I hear some tapping from under the plastic cover. So can anyone vouch for that theory?
Second Longstanding Problem
I have ABS and four-wheel disc brakes. Almost since Day One I hear the rear brake/wheel thumping at stops, which oddly enough sounds almost like someone stuck in the trunk and pounding lower right side of the car body with a fist!
There are two things that bring on the thumping sound:
Sitting at a stop with my foot resting too lightly on the pedal - in which case if I let up or stomp down harder the thumping noises disappear.
Second, I sometimes hear the same noise after I first pull into my driveway, put the car into park and pull up the emergency brake. It goes on about 30 seconds and anyone standing on the driveway or sidewalk when it occurs can hear the sound too.
The dealer has been unable to reproduce the noise and so they have done little or no diagnostic work.
Last week I had my car in for an oil change and now the dealer says my rear brakes are in need of replacement but not the front. A year ago I had 50 percent remaining on the front and 30 percent remaining on the back brake pads. Now I have 20 percent left on the rear of the car (but they didn't tell me the figure on the front.) The dealer wants me to pay for rear brakes even though they admit that the front brake pads should wear out somewhat faster than the rears.
My Impression
Normally, I would agree that brakes are wear-and-tear items and I should foot the bill. But based on a conversation with an independent mechanic, I feel some or all of this should fall under my warranty. Reason: The independent mechanic told me that if there is more than 10 percent discrepancy between the wear on the front and rear brake pads - which is true in my case - than there is a possibility that something is grabbing or the ABS is kicking in when it should not be and wearing down the rear brakes prematurely. As stated, I've been hearing this brake thumping on an intermittent basis for years and it is on record at my dealer that I've complained of it. So who should pay? For that matter, what could cause disc brakes to do this? Could the rotor be warped? What else might cause this noise?
CONCLUSION - I need all the help I can get!!!!!!!!!!
My dealer can't seem to put two and two together. Meanwhile, I've been visiting Hyundai forums for years to try to get a leg up or a helpful word of advice (which diagnostics to perform and in what order, for example). The only Hyundai discussion I've come across that seems to have REAL Hyundai techs is HERE, so I'm hoping I that if you are one of them you can reply to this post (thank you!).
Can anyone else reading this post relate? If so, was there a solution to a similar problem on your car?
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NewsView wrote:

It depends on your state, but I suspect that after 5 years you are way out of range of invoking any sort of lemon law.

How do you accelerate for 10-20 minutes?

I suppose it could be detonation or preignition, but it seems the dealer would be able to tell that. Have you tride another dealer?

Using 10W40 is not smart at all. It is well known to cause sludge and other problems which is my most auto makers have recommended against it for at least a decade. You should use what the owner's manual recommends. This would void your warranty and likely pretty much remove any chance of a claim against Hyundai.

I can't imagine what would cause this other than some issue with the ABS system. I've never heard of this sort of problem before.

It is hard to fix what you can't see or hear.

Very few cars wear out the brakes evenly. Most of my cars wear out the front pads faster, but not all.

You didn't say how many miles are on the car, only that it has less than 30K so it is hard to say if this is reasonably wear or not. If you are close to 30K and drive in the city much, then this is very good brake life.
Your independent mechanic doesn't have a clue if he thinks that front and rear brakes will wear out within 10% of each other. I've never in 30 years owned a car that had brake wear even close to that even between front and rear. Often side to side isn't even that close.
If the noise is occurring when you are sitting still as you say, then it can't be "warped" rotors as they aren't moving when the car is still.

And you need to read your owner's manual and use the correct oil.

I would try a different dealer if the one you have been using isn't giving you satisfaction.
Matt
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Hi Matt,
On the one hand, I appreciate your attempt to jump in and help. On the other hand, why assume I haven't done my homework - need I make my already thorough post twice as long to cover all the basis to explain the following?
First, I would't be here if I hadn't read the owner's manual cover-to-cover. I also have the Haynes guide, too. Plus, my owners manual says that 10/40 is within range for my car, AND the dealer is the one putting it into my engine! This oil is the only one rated to withstand the harsh heat of my geographic area. I wouldn't use 10/40 in snow country, but I don't live in snow country. Likewise, you don't want 5W oil in 120 degree heat in parts of the desert Southwest.
I've had people tell me to use 5W30, but that's not even mentioned in my owner's manual. So I have to assume that the newer Elantras might have different specs if they are permitting that range in their engines. (I have the engine with the shims and not the newer hydraulic lifter engine.) Last but not least, I had an immediate family member that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than most of the service advisors I deal with.
Oil preferences cut both ways. There are two schools of thought - one says if you use lighter weight oil it coats the lifters more quickly at startup. The other says if you use heavier weight oil it won't drain off the lifters so fast. At delivery the car and the dealer was using 10/30 but I bumped up to 10/40 in response to this problem. I've since bounced between the two and haven't noticed any real difference in terms of engine noise (except that the rattle is worse in cool and damp weather whereas in hot, dry weather it is much less pronounced). Also, how do you assume my problem is sludge build up given that the noise started when the car had only about 150-300 miles on it and still contained the original factory oil? Just the same, I would be open to 5W30 but my owner's manual doesn't even list that weight on the chart - so no, I have no interest in voiding the warranty.
As for how I accelerate - easy. I stop for a light. Accelerate. Stop for another light. Accelerate. The noise stops at the stop sign and picks up again when my foot is back on the gas pedal. Between 10-20 minutes later the engine noise is gone.
Remember, I pointed out that the corporate rep didn't even try to deny that there is a problem - he heard it and tried to fix it without success. If you are going to call someone on the carpet, why not them? They're supposed to be the experts - wheras from a consumer perspective I've gone above and beyond the call of duty to be patient with the dealer and to self educate myself so that I can be of constructive use to them as opposed to screaming, yelling or burning bridges (which is what most people in my shoes would have done within the first two years let alone five years of this nonsense).
As for lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for me to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year factory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration - though not lemon law - might still be an option.
I appreciate anyone who can help.
Matt Whiting wrote:

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Knowing jargon means absolutely nothing. Your earlier comments about brake wear in the front versus the rear was a clear indicator that you do not really understand much about cars - or at least about brakes. Being able to spout jargon only gets one into trouble if it isn't backed up by real knowledge. Actually, I doubt you really know more jargon than the service advisors - simply based on what you've written.

A usenet newsgroup is not a very good place to come for that advice. Maybe you should take your question to an attorney or to Hyundai directly.
--

-Mike-
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Mike Marlow wrote:
"Knowing jargon means absolutely nothing. Your earlier comments about brake wear in the front versus the rear was a clear indicator that you do not really understand much about cars - or at least about brakes. Being able to spout jargon only gets one into trouble if it isn't backed up by real knowledge. Actually, I doubt you really know more jargon than the service advisors - simply based on what you've written."
RE: Mike
Whoa, Mike. I gotta be honest: I'm not sure if you were intentionally trying to scare me off by brashly claiming I know virtually nothing about my car, or if you make it your practice to be that "direct" to everyone you "meet" on this newsgroup. Funny you make that claim though. I guess "knowing squatt about cars" is why I was hired years ago by a car dealership to call all the customers who had warranty work or repairs to see if they were happy and to report their experience directly to the company president!!!!!
Will you accept some friendly advice, Mike? If you don't know to whom you speak, first consider biting your tongue. There's no need to get caught up in a discussion that you don't like. If you can't say anything nice or helpful, just move on and have a nice life, LOL. BUT if you insist on being here, than have the decency to allow me to respond to your cynical conclusions:
I wasn't posting with you in mind when I started this topic. I've posted here before and "Hyundai Tech" replied and wanted additional info. in order to help me. As you can see in the title, I'm directing this thread at one specific person (or type of user, in the event that that particular user is no longer here). Hyundai-Tech asked the questions in response to my first post in this newsgroup LAST YEAR. I'm only doing my belated best to answer them in this thread, while not excluding the participation of anyone else who might have a similar experience or potential solution they wish to share. By contrast, what type of solution did you offer me? "Get Lost?" Sorry, but that's the only inference I could make based upon the helpfulness of your response.
Reminder # 1: The topic is the CAR and how to troubleshoot it - not me and whether or not you or anyone else can discredit my experience or change the subject.
Reminder # 2: I made NO claim or representation of being a mechanic in my reply to Matt. Matt was assuming the worst about my automotive knowledge too - and in that respect he sounded a lot like you. (Perhaps you go by more than one screen name, Mike?) Understand: I had a fair right to respond to MATT'S QUESTION to the effect that yes, I HAVE read my user manual. I HAVE done my homework. I HAVE stood by this car (despite the problems). I HAVE been polite to my dealer despite the fact that the "EXPERTS" can't figure this darn thing out any more than I can. The only thing that might make me an idiot in this situation is the fact that I didn't file Lemon Law when I had a chance.
Unlike Matt, who at least tried to be helpful in the bulk of his reply, your response, Mike, offered NOT ONE (1) iota of sympathy for my five-year ordeal. You are using your post to try to turn the subject around on me and my credibility instead of pointing the finger at the Hyundai dealer who is supposed to know what they are doing to repair THEIR MAKE and honor my business and my warranty. By questioning me and saying nothing about my car or how to troubleshoot the car, it seems as if you are trying to run interference in this thread by getting it off topic (and making it look like something nasty for others to avoid). Okay, let's say you are right in your assumption that I know squatt about cars. What I do or do not understand about mechanical theory does NOT change this REALITY: My car has been in my dealer's service bay for a total of 50 DAYS since I bought it new! Despite this, I have NEVER been as blunt or hostile to the service people in all this time as you just were by basically giving me a "You're an idiot" reply. When my service department sees me coming, the managers still have the decency to shake my hand. By contrast, all I've gotten here so far is the Internet equivalent of the finger. What's there to prove, anyway?
Now if you have any kind of conscience, Mike, you'll be a gentleman - assuming you are not a rude kid to begin with - and apologize for assuming that everyone who posts with the words "lemon law" or "arbitration" has an IQ of 20 just because you are confused or threatened by what you read. (Speaking of which, why would YOU, Mike, feel threatened - unless you WORK for Hyundai? Even if you do work for Hyundai, you aren't the idiot who missed the problems on my car year after year, Mike. YOU don't work for my dealer. I am not slamming YOU personally, Mike. So ease up and try not to TAKE things so personally! For all I know, Mike, you - and your best bud Matt - could be the smartest people posting to this forum. BUT all I know of you so far is that you haven't demonstrated any insight into how to diagnose or fix the two problems I laid out. So let's turn the tables. You can dish it out. Can you take it? If you REALLY know more than just "jargon" yourself, prove it to me. Pop Quiz: What is the first diagnostic or test you would run and why? What is your best educated guess or explanation for the problems I've described in this thread? Are you up to the challenge? If not, that's okay. (Really.) I only want people who feel like being truly HELPFUL or sympathetic to respond to my posts, anyway. I don't want this thread to degenerate into a TROLL FEST, which is what will happen if I keep defending my integrity when I haven't done anything wrong or rude by posting in this PUBLIC NEWSGROUP in the first place.
Just in case I was speaking a language other than English, let me recap my FIRST POST:
FACT # 1: I HAVE TALKED to an independent mechanic, whom I trust, who advises me that having a 50 percent discrepancy between the front and rear brake wear may suggest a PROBLEM (I point this out because you say I understand nothing about brakes - so are you going to say that the mechanic I consulted is ALSO full of BS. too?).
FACT # 2: A DEALER SERVICE ADVISOR admitted that it is NOT typical for the rear brakes to wear quite this fast compared to the front breaks. Don't believe the independent mechanic I spoke to? Fine. Don't even believe the Hyundai service advisor? Fine. Okay, go over to any other Elantra forum on the Internet and you will see people describing just such a thing - rear brakes wearing out early as a result of things like the parking brake or other misadjusted part. Don't believe any of them, either? I guess it is safe to conclude then, that the whole world is crazy except for you, Mike!
I'm not afraid to give credit where it is due. Yes, sometimes the rear brakes DO wear out first on some cars (duh!). But does this mean that it is NOT good mechanical practice to inspect the braking system and ABS to rule out the possibility of a co-contributing factor? C'mon, Mike, PLEASE don't tell me that when the rear brake pads to wear out at roughly DOUBLE THE RATE as the front brakes, that it is "normal." If you start talking like that, it would make you sound like a stereotypical blame-the-idiot-customer-at-all-costs type (although I have to give my dealership credit where it is deserved - even their employees haven't stooped THAT low).
In closing, if my particular dealer service department knew anything more than I do about this persistent engine noise and rear brake/ABS problem, I wouldn't be HAVING these problems drag on like this. So for the last time: The dealer has had my car in the shop for 50 days since I bought it. If that doesn't speak for itself than nothing will.
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Whatever - I simply responded to a public post your authored. You came in here thumping your chest about all the jargon you know. Maybe you should be a bit more careful what you post.

I'll bet everyone you meet in life owes you something...

Not really. I help out in this forum when I can and more often in others, but I don't like your attitude so I'll hapily sit back and watch you go through your tantrums and fits.

Apparently he does not. As was pointed out to you, the 10% margin is pure hogwash.

Nobody disagreed with that at all.

When you get on a roll you just run off, don't you. Next time you might consider authoring something that makes sense though.

Do yourself a favor and get rid of the car since obviously nodody knows anything about cars and nobody will ever be able to fix yours.
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It looks to me as if NewsView hit the nail on the head in diagnosing you "Mr. Marlow"

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So - are you one of the many sock puppets that he has been posting under here? No matter - simply killfile me, it won't hurt my feelings at all.
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NewsView wrote:

Sorry, it didn't sound like you were sure on the correct viscosity oil to use. If the owner's manual lists 10W40 as an option, then you should be fine warranty-wise. I'm surprised that Hyundai would still be recommending 10W40 as late as 2001 (I think that is what you said you car was) given that GM and others found serious problems with it long before that. Maybe Hyundai was a little slower to learn.

Knowing jargon means nothing. It didn't appear from your original post that you knew much about cars given that you were trying oil additives to combat detonation and you believed that front and rear brakes should wear out at the same time.

I made no assumption that sludge was the cause of the problem. I was simply hoping that you hadn't voided your warranty if you had plans to take Hyundai to arbitration.

You said 10-12 minutes of acceleration, not 10-20 minutes of stop and go driving.

I'm not calling anyone on the carpet. My you are thin-skinned. I suggested trying a different dealer if this one can't find the problem.

Usually there is either a section in your owner's manual that talks about arbitration and when it can be invoked or in a supplemental document that comes with the car. If you've read all of these from cover-to-cover, then you shouldn't need to ask that question here.
Matt
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Matt Whiting wrote:
Usually there is either a section in your owner's manual that talks about arbitration and when it can be invoked or in a supplemental document that comes with the car. If you've read all of these from cover-to-cover, then you shouldn't need to ask that question here.
Matt
Well, you are right about that, Matt. It is in my glove compartment. But my car is - where else? - in service for over a week! I can't get to it now, hence the question about arbitration. Really, I don't think these mechanical problems are rocket science, otherwise I would have done this a long time ago. Heck, I know it isn't easy to read about this C-R-A-P. It isn't easy to write it either. Kinda puts a person in a bad mood (so you see where I am coming from now). You seemed a little blunt in some of your replies, and it did put me off a bit because I don't know you (you might be a nice guy, but I can't tell from this side of the computer except by the sort of of things you write). Still, I also see that you are trying to help. So I really appreciate that. Have a good evening, Matt.
NewsView

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wrote:

My dealer used 20W50 on my first oil change. He told me that Hyundai recommends it. I immediately took it home and drained it out, and replaced it with 10W30.
I have a feeling there is a tug of war over oil weight for enhancing mileage and engine noise. Hyundai wants better gas mileage, so they recommend 5w20, which is ridiculous. The dealer wants fewer engine noise complaints, so they use 10W40 or 20W50 in hot climates. -
Bob
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Since you've put bullet points in, I'm going to answer them inline to help keep everything organized.

The frog-in-throat description makes me wonder if the air box is not sealed, and you're hearing the resonation from the air box. Make sure the air filter seals against the upper and lower portions of the air box and that it is properly put together.

This leads me to believe it may be some sort of clearance issue inside the engine. Every once in a while, I see one of these engines with a loose timing chain. Yes, you have one. It's inside the valve cover. The timing belt drives one cam, and the other cam is driven off a chain from the first cam. I doubt this is your noise, though. It's usually apparent standing in front of the vehicle while it's idling, no matter what the temperature.

blend????]
More likely, this is because of better noise transmittance in colder weather (shrinking weatherstrips and such) due to thermal expansion/contraction.

Fuel blend shouldn't have any effect on engine noise, unless the octane is too low.

This probably means that it's not spark knock.

There are enough things that change in two years that this is probably not meaningful.

Technically, the plugs are to be replaced at 60k miles or 4 years, whichever comes first. Personally, I don't see why plugs should need to be replaced on a time interval. Bad gas will leave carbon deposits. But so will good gas. The difference is in the amount of deposits. If you'd really had a bad gas issue, I'd expect you to have experienced a performance issue or check engine lamp.

If one of the sensors weren't talking to the computer, you'd definitely have a check engine lamp. The computer would see that it isn't getting the information it's looking for. That said, no check engine lamp doesn't equate no problem. I worked on a car last week that needed an oxygen sensor but wasn't setting any diagnostic codes.
The fact that the check engine lamp doesn't illuminate means that the computer finds everything it sees believable. Even so, there are many mechanical things the computer cannot detect. I'd suspect this noise is one of those things.

It sounds to me like the dealer doesn't know where the noise is originating. Presuming this noise is readily duplicable, I'm nut certain why the range of things they've checked is so broad. It'd seem that they could narrow the scope much better than they've done. Then again, I haven't heard the noise either. Compared to someone who actually has the vehicle present, I'm just some dummy on the internet.
If the lifters are noisy, it's not normal. Period. Like you've mentioned, you have solid lifters. They don't need to pump up. And trust me when I say that they keep a coating of oil on them. I've had cylinder heads off cars for a couple weeks at times. And guess what? When I started work again there was still oil on the lifters (and all the other oiled components that I hadn't cleaned). The reason hydraulic lifters sometimes make noise when the vehicle sits over a period of time is that there is always pressure on at least two lifters, which may push some oil back out of them. In this case, it can take a few seconds to a few minutes to repressurize the hydraulic lifters. But again, this is an impossible issue to have on this car.
The exhaust manifold idea is plausible. I've seen cases where exhaust manifolds or gaskets leaked when cold and it sounded remarkably like lifter tap.
The mount idea is doubtful. Shouldn't be affected by amount of time car sits. Of course, you already know that since they've replaced it to no avail.

The higher octane deal pretty much kills the spark knock idea. If you've tried a tank of premium with no change, chances are near zero it's spark knock.
Based on what's been discussed, I don't think it's an oiling issue. Feel free to use 10W30 or 10W40 as your preferences dictate.

I think the carbon deposits could be resulting from the short trips I suspect you take (30k in 5 years) or were left in large part by the additive that made your car not run properly. If you think you've got deposits on the valves, GM top engine cleaner is a good mechanism to attack this. They make an aerosol that you can spray into the throttle body, making servicing vehicles like yours simple.
If you had a sticky lifter or valve guide, that should hold the valve open and cause a misfire. The computer should see this and set a check engine lamp. Similarly, you should detect the misfire and power loss when you drive.
If the timing belt is too loose, it can vibrate against the plastic cover. I've seen this before, but not on this engine. But it does tend to sound like a "frog in the throat."

This could be caused by rear rotor nonparallelism or by varying friction on the rotor surface. People who drive their vehicles little (like you) tend to experience this more frequently because the rotors are more susceptible to rusting.

You hear the thumping when the vehicle is not moving at all? Hopefully that wasn't what was meant. If not, refer back to what I wrote above.

Have you offered to take them on a test drive to show them? If it happens only after the car sits overnight, leave it there and come back the next morning to show them.

Yes, it is abnormal for the rear pads to wear faster than the front pads. I've seen this happen for a variety of reasons: binding caliper, binding brake cables, or rusting brake pad backing plates, the latter two of reasonable frequency.
I'd recommend having a good look at the pads to see if the backing plates are rusted. If so, they're likely binding in the caliper bracket.
I'd also recommend checking the rubber boots on the parking brake cables. I've seen these break over time and allow water in the cable, developing rust and causing binding.

Unless there's some warrantable issue causing the brakes to wear out (such as the parking brake cable within the 5/60 period), you have zero chance of getting Hyundai to pay for the brake pads. Your car is five years old. They won't extend a one year warranty to five.
Your independent mechanic doesn't know much about brakes if he thinks any descrepancy between front and rear brakes is meaningful. Front and rear brakes wear at different rates. That's the way it is. That's the way it will always be. Laws of physics, you know.
It's doubtful the thumping is related to your pad wear. If you're within the 5/60 warranty period, a rotor issue could be covered by your warranty. But it won't cover rusting of the rotors.

I find it troubling that the "engine" noise issue is so scattershot. If you can speak to the rep without the dealer being present, ask if he thinks it would be better to let another dealer have a shot. He'll know how competent his dealers are. I'm really curious to know why the noise cannot be better pinned down. Motor mounts. Heat shields. Solenoid valves. Lifters. I'm left wondering if this noise is really readily duplicable.
As to your arbitration, you're probably done. You'll need to check your literature that came with the car. The procedure varies by state.
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That was an OUTSTANDING analysis of the problems 'from afar'. I wish I could find someone like you at my dealerships!! Someone with that ability to troubleshoot would be really a joy at the service rep counter, too!!! Want to move to Georgia????
:o)
Tom

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Tom wrote:

I think hyundaitech is way too smart to do that! :-)
Matt
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How 'bout I just visit for a week.
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