synthetic oil for 06 Sonata V-6

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Bob Adkins wrote:


These were laboratory tests of a half dozen or so oil properties of oils both sold as being for motorcycles specifically and standard auto oils. They weren't tests in engines so the fact that the tests were commissioned at an independent laboratory by a motorcycle magazine isn't relevant.
Matt
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Agreed.
Again, we get back to degrees. How bad were the bad ones, and how were the tests quantified?
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Bob Adkins wrote:

It has been 5+ years since I read the articles. I don't remember the specific details and I don't think I even have the mags anymore. Since nobody here cares enough about the data to obtain it, I've got nothing more to say on the subject.
Actually, I hope that the folks here don't buy premium oils such as Mobil 1, Castrol products, and similar. They cost too much now and if the demand gets any higher the price will only increase and cost me more money! It is bad enough that makers of cars such as the Corvette, a model or two of Porsche, etc., ship Mobil 1 from the factory and pretty much require its use.
Then again, Hyundais are cheap cars so it seems fitting to use cheap oils, oil filters, tires, etc., on them.
Matt
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Matt Whiting wrote:

Oh boy, here we go again. Where's this data? EXACTLY how much of a difference? What are the FUNCTIONAL differences?
I provided you with oil analysis data for Super Tech Full Synthetic 5W-30. Do you have anthing to refute the conclusions therein? Do you have any data showing that any other oil is demonstrably superior in any way? You can keep making vague references to an old motorcycle magazine article if you wish, but that's not good enough. It's time to either put up or shut up.

Define "far better". What does that nebulous term mean in the real world? How much of a difference in lubrication are we talking about during a typical oil change interval? Is there even ANY AT ALL?
It's convenient to throw around meaningless terms with nothing to back them up or provide any context. The bottom line is that you simply don't know, but you're not going to let that prevent you from making unfounded claims. You read one article that's what, six years old, and that's aparently become gospel for you. When you look at it that way, it seems pretty ridiculous, doesn't it?

Again, a pointless attempt to confuse the issue with a specious argument.
If the SAE minimum standards exceed the requirements of engine manufacturers - WHICH THEY CLEARLY DO - how can that possibly be a problem? It can't be, except apparently in YOUR mind.
BTW, I'm a Quality Assurance Engineer, so you're really barking up the wrong tree when you try to make such ridiculous claims.
The SAE has continuously raised its standards, which has resulted in continuous improvements in oil quality. Does that mean all oils are the same? Of course not, but the more you raise the standard, the smaller the differences become, since the upper limit isn't changing much, if at all. When you get right down to it, there hasn't been a truly significant development in motor oils since the introduction of synthetics. The bottom line is that there is no such thing as a poor-quality, API certified oil.
Speaking of synthetics, if natural oils are sufficient to meet the needs of the engine(s) - WHICH THEY ARE ACCORDING TO HYUNDAI - synthetics, which are demonstrably superior, are already a classic case of "exceeding the need". What possible REAL-WORLD difference could it make if one synthetic is fractionally "better" than another?
The truth is that unless you're trying to push an oil to the limits of its life by abusing your engine (racing) or extending your change intervals to 10K, 15K or more miles, it doesn't make any difference what oil you use. As long as you use an API SL/SM certified oil and change it at Hyundai's suggested intervals, there is not likely to be any difference in normal driving. If you don't want to believe that, it's your perogative, but your personal paranoia doesn't change anything. Perhaps you just find all the brand-name hype and bluster comforting, but the truth is that it's just noise, as are your arguments.
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Brian Nystrom wrote:

It isn't a vague reference, I gave you a direct reference to its location. I don't have the data, well I might have, but I don't think I have MCN issues back to the 2001 or so timeframe when their last test was published. And if I did, I wouldn't violate copyright law by publishing it here.
Since you don't want to really see probably the most comprehensive COMPARISON data out there (I've certainly never seen anything like it from any other source), then I guess you should hang it up.

Buy the article. Read it.

Yes, it seems pretty ridiculous to be unwilling to obtain the data. It is much easier to just claim it doesn't exist.
It is the only comparison I've ever found among many different oils. I don't recall the details, but I believe they had upwards of 20 different brands tested. If you know of a more recent or more comprehensive comparison, I'm all ears. I'll even pay to buy it if you give me the reference.

It certainly isn't obvious that you are. I'm guessing that you work for either Wal-Mart or the folks that bottle Supertech, right? I should have made that connection earlier.

How do you know where the upper limit is? Back before the advent of synthetics, people making dino oils couldn't even imagine the performance capability of synthetics. Who knows what the next revolution in lubrication might be? Must be you do, so can you tell us what the upper limits are?

Funny, I was thinking the same things about yours...
Matt
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[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]

A quote of a significant data item with credits is "fair use" and violates no copyright.
In another thread about octane you accused me of "just making things up" Well, you are doing exactly the same thing many places in this thread.
gerry
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[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]

You just "made up" copyright law.
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
"The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations;...."
gerry
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gerry wrote:

If I had the original article, I'd have to quote a substantial portion of it to convince you or Brian. That would hardly constitute a "short passage." As best I recall, the article was very long and took two or three issues of the magazine to contain it all. I wouldn't type in that much information even if I had it and it was legal, not to save you a few bucks because you are too cheap to buy a legitimate copy.
So long and thanks for playing.
Matt
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[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]

Nice try, I knew you wouldn't read the official copyright office page.
at the government source
"Copyright protects the particular way an author has expressed himself; it does not extend to any ideas, systems, or factual information conveyed in the work."
You may quote ANY fact, no matter how long.
gerry
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Hmm . . . I believe the original queston was regarding synthetic oil for the Sonata V6, not some debating match on the technicalities of "everything pertaining to oil QC and pricing." Just purchase a case of Mobil 1 5W-30, and be done with it. I just paid $4.49 per quart this evening, either single quarts or case quantities. I think all of us have far too much time on our hands!
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damn Guys! you're beating a dead horse....give it up! :-)
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gerry wrote:

I quoted the fact. That fact is that all oils aren't created equal and some are better than others. You and Mr. Supertech are now asking me to post the details of the article, which would require scanning and posting as most was in graphical form. That would clearly be a copyright violation. And I'm not doing that much work (assuming I even still have the magazine in my archives) to save you $7 or whatever it would cost for a reprint.
I'm done with you.
Matt
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Matt Whiting wrote:

I emailed you a .jpg file, Matt. You can't do the same for us? Tsk, tsk. I guess it's just easier to get your panties all in a wad and refuse to participate.
BTW, I have no ax to grind for Supertech, per se. I just don't like seeing a good product being lambasted by someone who obviously has no clue what they're talking about.
As I suggested above, go read the Consumer Reports article, since you're a fan of their testing. In case you ignored it above, here's the URL again:
http://www.xs11.com/stories/croil96.htm
If you're too lazy to even click on the link and read the article - or unwilling to do so, since it refutes your claims - I'll summarize their conclusions for you:
1- There was no measureable difference in wear in the engines tested between brands of oil, regardless of price or type of oil (natural, synthetic or synthetic blend).
2- Any API certified oil will protect an engine for typical 7500 mile change intervals.
That was as of 1996. API standards have been raised 5 times since then, so current oils are even better than those tested, at least incrementally.
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You are right! I think everyone agrees with you on that.
But Matt, it's a matter of DEGREE. Some of us believe the differences in modern premium oil are so miniscule that it's insignificant. Apparently you believe there are large enough differences within groups of similarly rated oil to cause premature engine wear. Even if that were true, I don't believe it would lead to the death of the engine. There are many other things that will happen to it first.
I dropped by friend's house 1 day, and he was struggling with a pallet of bottled water he had just brought home from Sam's Club. I ask about the water, and he said he "didn't trust the city water". On top of the pallet of bottles was several cartons of cigarettes. I told him not to worry, and guaranteed him the city water would not kill him!
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[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]

I never claimed all oils are the same. I didn't even enter this thread until you fabricated copyright law as an excuse you couldn't provide data!
If you expressed opinion based upon prior readings or other sources, no one could argue. Anybody can have any opinion.
I do have the opinion that synthetic's benefits are often over stated versus high quality modern conventional oil. "Overstated" does not mean they are not superior in some applications!
I have owned vehicles since 1966 and never used synthetic. I never had an oil related engine failure and probably have an average of 140,000 miles per car before replacement. I always used brand name oil of the highest rating available at the time.
Perhaps it is the brand motor vehicle I preferred or perhaps it was proper care. Since any oil is vulnerable to contaminants and additive deterioration, every oil needs to be changed.
Thus I am left with no data to suggest why I should not just meet or exceed the published specifications for my 2006 Sonata V6.
gerry
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Matt Whiting wrote:

Nice try Matt, but that's not going to cut it. Either post the info or send it to me. I'm not going to spend my money on an outdated article in a motorcyle magazine just to refute your ridiculous claims. If you're so invested in one friggin' magazine article, it's incumbent on YOU to produce it.
I also find it pretty amazing that you can't even recall when the article was or whether you have it, but you know for sure that it showed huge differences between oils. Funny stuff, Matt.

You send it to me and I'll read it.

Who said that? There you go making things up again, Matt. You seem to have a REAL problem with that.

Why don't you buy a copy of the article that you keep eluding to and share it with us?
Is there something more current? Perhaps, but I have no idea and never claimed to. Whether there is or not is irrelevent to whether your claims have any validity. All you've done is make unfounded statements and insinutations. That's not evidence or data, Matt.

It would be if you had the slightest clue as to what it means or what quality is.

So now you're concocting conspiracy theories? Do you ever live in the real world?
For the record, I have nothing to do with the petroleum industry or the retail industry or any company that has anything to do with this discussion.
Wait a minute, I get it. YOU work for Mobile, don't you??? That MUST BE IT!!!
Sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it, Matt? Just like your comment above.

Yet another specious argument. Imagine that?
There are limits to current technology. That doesn't mean that there won't be a breakthrough in the future comparable to the introduction of synthetic oils, but it's not available today. Modern oils are mature products; they've been researched and developed thoroughly. The differences between them are tiny, as there's simply no place to go within the limits of current technology. Any changes in the past decade or two have been at best incremental and at worst, nothing but marketing hype.

Well, I'm not the one continually shooting myself in the foot by making things up. To quote Forrest Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does."
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"Wal-Mart Supertech oil filters are junk, see below and other places: http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/filters.shtml "
Matt,
I've been using the super tech filters for years without a single problem. They are made by STP. If you open up the box on a bosch, STP and a super tech filter you will see that the canister is identical down to the letter stampings, save for the label on the outside. In this respect I agree with Mr. Bartsch.
I would question the integrity of information on a website that only lists one type of filter to avoid, and completely misses the trainwreck called "Fram". Fram filters made since they were acquired by allied signal are the ones to avoid. I had one of those blow up on a cold start one morning. I've never had a super tech leak or fail. One need look no further than the disclaimer at the top of the page to see that the information you have posted a link to is meant to be questioned: "This review contains no SAE or ASTM test data regarding filtration ability or flow information."
Chris
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On 28 Mar 2006 09:57:05 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Chris,
I thought SuperTech filters were made by Champion Labs. Maybe I'm behind the times, as usual. :(
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Bob Adkins wrote:

It likely changes year to year as Wal-Mart shops for the best price.
Matt
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You neglected to say "best product". Wal-Mart is always looking for the best products at the best prices. I would be disappointed if they didn't shop around for something better and cheaper.
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