Wow! How about that new Genesis!

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Just saw a commercial during the Super Bowl for the Hyundai Genesis! Too bad i can't afford to buy one, so i have to settle for the Sonata, but that Genesis is a beauty!! Hyundai has come a long long long
way!!!
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Yea, it's beautiful but you have to ask yourself what are these car companies thinking? Introduce a car with 375 horsepower on premium gas at $3.25 a gallon instead of a smaller diesel powered car that we sane people want? I say 'sane' because there are those of you out there with the 'I can afford it so I'm going to get it' mindset that has the rest of us sane people forced into larger vehicles just because 'we want some protection in case we get hit by one of the behemoths that surround us on the highways'. Legislate and tax the big SUV's off the highways and see how quickly small cars will proliferate. Oh how I hate yuppies!

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People with too much money and no regard for anyone else aren't yuppies, they're called idiots. The problem is the Energy Tax Act of '79 that's your problem, not "yuppies." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Tax_Act
- Thee Chicago Wolf
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What an idiot.. I hate "nanny types" who think they know what's best for everyone. I'll spend MY MONEY as I see fit.You want to drive a go-cart so the government should outlaw SUV's and trucks? That's just what we need...More nanny laws to regulate behavior..Was you born stupid or is it something you work on daily.I can just imagin trying to haul all my tools and materials around in a Yugo...You want to drive around with your knees on your chest,fine go for it but leave me the hell alone....I suppose next you will be whining that my house is to big as well and we need laws to regulate square footage per person....Socialist moonbat.....

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Why should the rest of America pay for your overconsumption of gas? So what if you have the money, you anti-americanism stinks.
- Thee Chicago Wolf
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I guess you can't read either...I use my truck for WORK...Look it up if you don't know what it means.....By the way ,what do you drive and how big is your house? Public Transportation and Public Housing maybe???? I'll get rid of my truck when Al Gore starts riding a bike and living in a Tee-Pee...LOL
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LOL.... :)
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You don't even see the irony in it all. I never mentioned global warming. I am talking about rate of consumption. Big difference. Please continue to support the Chinese and Arab economies, they're depending on you.
- Thee Chicago Wolf
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Geesh,ATLEAST use the right countries I'm supporting...Like The United States,(we do still produce our own oil you know)Canada, Venezuela,Russia THEN Saudi Arabia. Don't forget Korea (Elantra)...LOL..MORON...
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It's pointless to argue with you because you seem to believe what USA Today tells you is truth. Sorry, you are not correct.
- Thee Chicago Wolf
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TCW,
If you would get out more, you would notice that people get what they deserve. If they work hard and can afford nice cars, they deserve them. If they sit around and fiddle, they deserve less. That's the way it has always been, and the way it always will be. You don't think the hard working people should lower their living standards so lazy asses can have more, do you?
Wastefulness will indeed hasten the depletion of natural resources. However, people aren't equipped to deal with that in times of plenty. When fuel goes up to $15 a gallon, even some of the wealthier people will be forced to cut back. The $15 fuel is closer than we think, so all the waste is not doing as much harm as you think. -
Bob
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Bob, it's got nothing to do with not getting out enough. I'm a bit insulted by your presumptuous attitude that I'm poor or something or that I insist people lower themselves or their standards. It's beyond a gross misinterpretation of the original argument of this post / thread. I don't give a rat's posterior what anyone drives.
As I've said from the beginning, a law that's been abused by car makers needs to be updated to address today's problems. Bush signed legislation, albeit too little too late, to address this by 2020. I'm just curious as to what loopholes exist in it, if any. There are people who work hard (you know, three jobs, kids, mortgage, bills, etc.) and STILL don't get ahead and it's got nothing to do with idleness or lethargy or not working harder. Everyone's situation is different. People who work smarter, not harder, get ahead in life. That, Bob, is how it IS.
$15 a gallon to the uber wealthy isn't going to be a big deal but one could only HOPE there will be an alternative to $15 gas by the time that happens. You don't think Paris Hilton, in her 10 city, 17 highway Bently, care is gas if $50 a gallon, do you?
I don't know that I agree with you that we're almost there. China and India's economies haven't quite peaked yet. Gas prices THAT high, I would imagine, would crash an economy. When a resources appears to be plentiful, it's not an apparent problem. You HAVE to factor in double or triple digit growth in other countries. They're going to want a bigger and bigger part of that world oil every year as their economy booms. People will only notice it when it's either almost gone or can only be had by the highest bidder. The bigger picture is that it's not just about fixing a broken law or making 35MPG the standard for a fleet by 2020, it's also the repercussions of sending industry to countries that are now booming exponentially as a byproduct. Exactly how much harder CAN a person work if another country is reaping all the benefits?
- Thee Chicago Wolf
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We don't need any artificial laws. The only real law that should govern MPG in cars and fuel prices is supply and demand. Let the markets stay free. That way, the prices will always be fair, and the vehicles will have bearable fuel economy.
You talk as though the government is responsible for the laws of physics. Internal combustion engines have been all but tweaked to the limit. In order to improve mileage significantly, the automobile will have to undergo serious change. Cars will have to get smaller and a lot lighter to significantly improve mileage. Some people won't like the cars that result, so they will be accepted very grudgingly. Car makers aren't in business to make the government happy. They are in business to make their customers happy. And that's the way it should be. -
Bob
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Normally I'd agree and strongly support your position. But I'm not so sure it works in this case.
Let's play "what if". What if the government did not mandated unleaded fuel? What if the government did not mandate some fuel savings? Would technology have won or would we be changing plugs at 10,000 miles because they are lead fouled? Would cars till be 5000 pounds when a much lighter one performs better?
Agree that the internal combustion engine is pretty close to its limits so other types must be researched. Twenty years ago people said the internal combustion engine was at its limit, but the automakers manage to add some power every couple of years. Just look at the 3800 GM for instance. Hyundai 3.3 is getting a boost. Evidently it is still possible to squeeze a bit more.
Just my opinion, but the hybrid is not the way of the future.
I'm also not so sure that the automakers actually want some of the changes that the government forces them to charge more for and increase profits. Public posturing aside, they do add those mandated "improvements" into the cost of the car. "We don't want to increase prices but the government makes us do it."
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Ed,
Yes, this is true. Innovations and technological tweaking continues to squeeze more out the IC engine. Variable intake seems to be the new big thing for 2008.
Reinforced by this fact, the 2007/2008 4-cyl Sonata not only has MORE horsepower than my 2002 6-cyl, it get's better mileage! When my 2002 dies or I sell it off or trade in, I will be looking forward to what 4-cyl model is going to be out.
- Thee Chicago Wolf
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wrote:

Fair enough, but let's not get public health issues mixed up with economic issues.

Physics dictates how much work a gallon of gasoline can perform. With the old technology, we weren't too close to that. Newer engines are actually getting pretty close. To get any *significant* MPG boosts, we'll have to drop not hundreds, but thousands of pounds from our current family sedans. If my 3.3L Sonata weighed 2400 instead of 3400 pounds, it could easily get 35 mpg (if geared accordingly). A little aerodynamics, and sacrifice a little less interior room, and I bet she gets 45mpg. It's not as much the engine as the car.

Agree! Plug-in hybrids are the way to go... until something better comes along.

I hear you. They love to stick new charges on the window sticker. :) -
Bob
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Bob,
It's good that you see the clear reason why the legislation was signed. I think you're a bit one-sided in your global outlook though because you clearly illustrate only the wealthy will be able to afford to buy gas and it will push the rest of the 99% out. The underlying argument seems to be that the market drive everything but people in the US with your mindset think America is the only country that consumes oil for the production of gas for cars. You are NOT factoring in the exponential growth occurring in other developing countries.
Blah Blah Blah, here come the big bad government always telling us what to do and when to do it. The legislation ultimately does not to tell US what to do, it just sets challenges to what the auto industry already knows it has to do but will ONLY do if dragged kicking and screaming. According to your philosophy, if left to their own devices, the automakers would ditch all large cars and make small cars. Auto makers have NO incentive to make small cars because they make gobs of money from their LARGE vehicles. They will continue to focus on the BIG money maker, not the chump change compact cars. But lately, all I see are recalls and auto-makers going in the toilet because people aren't buying the large cars. The large car bubble has burst from what I can tell. At least until gas comes back down to what it was pre_Iraq War.
Yes, improving vehicles efficiency is a challenge. Every year, science proves you CAN do more. You CAN push the limit a bit further. You CAN improve upon what's already current. I am constantly reading about grad and Ph. D. students figuring out some tweak to the engine to improve it a bit more. Some improved engine component is made to squeeze out a little bit more. I am very aware of the limit of the carbon atom.
I am just waiting for the whole outside of all cars to be made out of plastic like bumpers back 10 years ago. The styrofoam beneath was a nice touch too. That's always made me feel safer. The car makers will cut any and all corners to meet that magic MPG ratio based on vehicle size and weight. I noticed at the Chicago auto show the new "smaller" Hummer sure looks like it's made out of a hell of a lot of plastic. Gee, wonder why? This is the little game they have to play to sloooooowly introduce the idea that plastic is safe for more than just bumpers, wheel well, and quarter panels. All the plastic in the world cannot save them though, try as they might. But it is to their benefit you see, plastic IS, after all, a petroleum product. And the circle goes round and round and round....
- Thee Chicago Wolf
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I'm sure we're irritating the piss out of the general group who are discussing Hyundais but whether we agree or not, I like a good debate and discussion. It's all good.

I'm not sure where you're getting this "luxury" car thing from as I never injected it into the conversation. I guess our definitions of luxury cars differ? I can tell from the way you choose to word things in terms of cars that it's partially an aesthetic choice as opposed to practical or pragmatic. I feel most people make choices based on their budget and their overall intended purpose. The average adult is, what, 8K in financial debt (credit or otherwise)? Most people have sense enough to stick within their economic means.
Now, the 99% I am talking about is the "99%" that was referred to in the discussion about "the wealthiest 1% of American's have more wealth than the combined 99% of all Americans." THOSE 99%. Not the 99%, as in "everybody else." I didn't make that clear. I was still following on the tail end of the earlier discussions of those wealthy enough to afford $15 gas prices from a few posts ago that would put gas out of the reach of the rest of the "99%." That should be more on target with what I really mean. Clear as mud?

Ok, I got you on this one. A few months back there was heated debate on this exact same topic on this exact same car. Someone attempted, and failed, to tell me gas today had never been as high, even adjusted for inflation. I am old enough to remember the Arab Oil Embargo of the early 70s (1973 to be exact, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis ) and that gas, adjusted for inflation, topped our highest per-barrel costs in recent months. The Energy Tax Act came about as a direct result of that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Tax_Act ).
The car makers scrambling to make smaller cars was, in my interpretation, a result of the Arab Oil Embargo and the economic climate of the time. While it did take nearly 6 years for the Energy Tax Act to be signed into law (1978) after gas prices went nuts in the late 70s and early 80s, it at least set the precedent that car makers WERE willing to work with the government to find a middle-ground solution for both the oil side and the economic side of the problem. Today, I feel you have to hold a gun to their head. Sanatayana said it best: "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
I kind of see the legislation that Bush signed as a bit of prodding being done against the car makers. Back in the 70s, I don't feel they needed to be prodded. They saw what needed to be done and stepped up to the challenge.

Well, it's funny you mention sacrifice. This is exactly what someone was talking about on NPR as I carpooled with my wife this morning. Just 1 generation ago, people knew what it meant to sacrifice a little both for themselves and their country. I don't see that so much now. At least not in the generation growing up. In terms of sacrifice, can you imagine if people had to ration rubber and metal like they did during the early World Wars? Our senior citizens who had to deal with this type of situation would be laughing at how much a bunch of Sally's people have become.
Using science to created stronger alloys and make better use of metals in car could yield some weight reductions. Ultimately it all does fall on the shoulder of the engine and it's power. We're also seeing a lot of new technology being put into cars now that wasn't there 10 years ago: Nav systems, full cabin air bags, multi speaker arrays, DVD players and screens, etc. That stuff adds to the aggregate weight. It's starting to become standard on some models. 5 years from now, who knows.
Hey, I'll take the 2 more miles to the gallon from tweaking if the technology tweak stays in the design. For someone who might be buying their first new car and expect it to last them a good 5-10 years with good maintenance, the 2 mile per gallon savings could sure add up over the long term and afford them a better vehicle down the road.

Nerf car? Better patent the name before Toyota does! You might retire on the royalties or something. Yes, it will be interesting to see what will be on the roads in 2025. The trend to use plastics on bumpers is probably to increase aero dynamism I would surmise. I can't imagine it being easy to make a metal cast of the crazy bumper designs we see today. It MUST be easier to cast it in plastic. I hope the automakers do rise to the challenge. Hopefully recruit some young minds coming out of school to put their minds to work on the problem. Cheers.
- Thee Chicago Wolf
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Thee Chicago Wolf wrote:

And you with that gas guzzling Sonata that doesn't even get 30 MPG.
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Zing. Thanks for the input Matt.
- Thee Chicago Wolf
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