1998 Rodeo ABS - CRAP!

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I just found out about the recall on ABS chip and resetting of the algorithm. I was wondering if it really does help reduce stopping distance? I came down my icy street last night and hit my breaks to test it but the
ABS would not stop the car at all. It just kept rolling forward at about 3 MPH!! I almost killed myself on the highway last year (driving at 50 MPH) when the ABS would not even slow the car down (on the icy road I had come across) after over 200 feet when a car stopped in front of me!! I had to drive off the road and around the stopped car to avoid a crash. Is there any was of just disconnecting the damn ABS system. I think all these systems give a false sense of safety. I would rather go into a controlled slide with wheels locked than wonder if and when the ABS will stop the car!!
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laz wrote:

ABS in general doesn't really work on ice. Also in off-roading it might give some problems. Make it switchable from the dash or take the fuse out. In other circumstances it will work though. Kind regards, Erik-Jan.
--

http://www.fotograaf.com/trooper

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I called the dealer. They said that I already had the recall done a long time ago. Is the fuse located in the engine compartment fuse box? I could not find any labeled ABS in either fuse box areas? Is it labeled something other than ABS? TIA Laz

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laz wrote:

I don't know. Maybe someone with a Rodeo in this group can tell you. Kind regards, Erik-Jan.

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I found the fuse - it was in the engine compartment fuse box. I must not have had my eyes on the first time. Thanks

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ABS is not intended to reduce stopping distance, but rather to allow the driver to maintain control. This is a great idea for those who can't drive, but if you have some advanced driving knowledge, it won't really do you any good to have ABS.
JC

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Just take it to the dealer for the recall. It helps quite a bit.
As for stopping on a slippery surface - ABS only prevents the wheels from locking up. When the wheels lock up, you have no control. With the ABS working correctly, you can avoid hitting an object that would otherwise be in your skid path.
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Not sure what you are expecting. If you're on an icy surface then you're gonna have trouble stopping with or without ABS. ABS does not increase traction. It prevents the tires from locking up. It essentially does the same thing as the driver pumping the brakes. Either way if you lock up the tires you increase your stopping distance and limit the ability to control the vehicle. I am not a fan of ABS on snow or ice. I find it does not pump the brakes with the same level of control I can obtain myself.
But the question is, are you skilled at driving on icy roads? If you pull the fuse to disable ABS, do you know how to pump the brakes affectively to maintain control? The other issue is that your stopping distance can easily be 2 to 10 times normal and in some cases even more.
laz wrote:

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I have been driving for a long time (just turn 50). One of the benefits of disabling the ABS is that when I purposely make the wheels lock up on snow/ice combo, from sliding forward - the tires push snow in front of themselves and THAT slows the car down much faster than ABS does. It is like driving on the sand dunes. Of course if I were driving on pure Ice - nothing much helps - except if while the wheels are locked up and sliding, the tires may hit a dryer / or saltier spot - which would again slow the car more than with ABS. With ABS, the tires roll over the dryer parts as well as any accumulated snow in front of the tires. I drove all day in 6+ inches of snow and ice today with the ABS fuse pulled. I can tell you without a doubt that I had 100% more control over the vehicle than when the ABS was working. By pumping the breaks at my choice - I have always had better control of my vehicles - including the big trucks that I had driven for years. One of the most important things to learn in winter driving is that sometimes it is imperative to take the car out of gear!! Most people have no clue about this so the rear wheels keep pushing their cars forward until they end up someone's rear or though an intersection! Although I have to say that the ABS system works much better on my Toyota Sequoia! I did not have to disable it on that vehicle yet and probably won't. The ABS system on my '98 Rodeo is dangerous at best - even with the recall fix. ABS does not stop the car from rolling - going down any snowy/icy hill. While using ABS, going down hill at 20 MPH - applied the break without pumping it - the car slowed to about 6 to 10 MPH but could NOT STOP at all - it just kept rolling forward for over 500 feet!! With the ABS disabled on the same hill, I pumped the break a few times, went into a few controlled slides - pulled up the park break a little - came to a stop in 1/2 the distance - in most a straight line! If ABS is not useful in snow and ice (I have never seen snow without ice!) - only on wet roads (as long as their is no oil, leaves or mold on the wet roads - of course) - then just how often can we really benefit from it? Under ideal test conditions, I agree that ABS will be of benefit - but how often do we drive under the same ideal conditions? I wonder just how many serious accidents were caused partly by ABS systems? How would we ever know?!!

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That is the point. You had control of the car because the wheels didn't lock up. Without ABS, you either would have slammed into the car as your brakes locked up, or would have driven off the road at an even faster speed, which can't be good.

You are correct. There is no technology that can make rubber and ice work together well.

Just how does one go into a controlled slide with wheels locked? The wheels are the ONLY control you have between the vehicle and the pavement. When they lock up, they don't spin, thus becoming nothing more than friction pads over which you have NO control.
Whatever adjustments you make to your ABS, the only real solution is to slow the fuck down on icy roads.
I've seen too many people try to drive when it was just plain foolish to do so. A guy goes to the parking lot and literally slides to his car, arms waving about to keep his balance. Sprays a little de-icer into the lock so he can get in, and on the windshield so he can see. Starts the car and starts spinning the wheels. Throws some sand behind the tires to get some traction. Pulls out and slams into a curb on the other end. Keeps going.
What does a guy like this think is going to happen when driving around on icy roads? If he couldn't even get his car going without the comical slip and slide routine, he is he going to manage making a turn or slowing down for pedestrians?
Now I've driven when it was so cold that the tires were out of round where they sat all night, and felt the thumping which turned into a horse's gallop the first time I turned the wheels, but although the roads weren't icy at that time, it was still exceedingly wise to take it REAL slow, because you never know where ice will form. Never had an accident nor even a close call, and this was in an old heavy car and military vehicles without ABS.
Pagan
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You don't read very well? I said that I could NOT stop in time WITH ABS doing 50 MPH. I was forced to drive on the medial strip around the two vehicles to avoid crashing into them (I had given myself about 300 feet to slow down and stop) . I had atwo cars to my right so I could not go around the stopped cars that way. What would have happened if I did not have frozen / snowy grass to my left - but instead maybe a concrete barrier? I would have crashed into the stopped car or the concrete or both - thanks to the ABS system!! Bottom Line: ABS - on my '98 Rodeo is not well engineered system and is dangerous.
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laz wrote:

Problem 1. 50mph on icy roads is just plain stupid.

If your tires were locked up you would most likely not have been able to manuver around anything.
> Bottom Line: ABS - on my '98 Rodeo is not well engineered

Problem 2. Lack of understanding of what ABS does. Your complaint is that you couldn't stop. The reason you couldn't stop is because you were driving 50mph on icy roads. ABS is not some sort of electronic gizmo that magically increases traction between rubber and ice so you can stop. Not intended for that.
Problem 3. Not understanding how to drive on icy roads. Even with ABS you can still pump the brakes if you do not like how ABS behaves. Several years ago I was driving down highway 550 towards Durango. It was windwhipped hard packed ice. I noticed about 1 mile ahead there were emergency vehicle lights all over the highway. I was traveling 30mph in my 4x4. I began pumping the brakes and felt little braking action. Finally about 100 feet before the road block (accident scene) I was down to about 5mph and gained traction. It took almost a full mile to slow from 30mph to a stop. Understanding just how slick ice and snow can be is essential to learning how to drive on it. ABS will never allow you to drive 50mph on ice and stop easily.
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Please... If conditions had allowed 60 MPH, I would have gone faster!! What make you so certain that under conditions that you have not experienced 50 MPH was "stupid" - are you a psychic? You guys have stock in ABS? Ya must! I am not asking for anyone to agree with me that my '98 Rodeo's ABS system sucks. If 50 MPH driving is plain stupid than I am sure that I share that stupidity with lots of other people - especially all my buddy skiers - we do not have 4 hours to take what normally takes 2 hours to drive. Roads are not snow and ice covered everywhere, sometime we just come up on black ice (clear ice) and you have to react - which was the case with me.

But when one needs to stop - one should be able to stop, don't you agree. Even if I were driving at 30 MPH - One Whole Mile is just a wee bit more than expected to stop with or without ABS! Just what is ABS intended for - RAIN only? So Unless you live in Oregon or London - it is useless - right?

Unless there were white out conditions (which obviously there weren't since you saw 1 mile ahead) and there was traffic, I am sure you were getting lots of people pretty pissed off at you for holding up traffic in the middle of nowhere. Taking one mile to stop - GREAT ABS system!! If you are such a good driver how come you were driving at 30 MPH without any traction. Were you exceeding conditions also? You should have had more control over your car so that it did not take ONE MILE for it to come to a stop! If I were driving a big truck in front of you, I bet I would have stopped faster and you would have been up my rear looking at my rear axle and undercarriage.
Finally - as I said, my Toyota Sequoia has much better ABS system and handles better in the snow especially since it is heavier. Either way, knock on wood (or Formica) I have a pretty darn good driving record for being an old fart - maybe I guess I do know a little about how to stay safe and be in control?
This is not to say that I will be getting rid of my Rodeo. It is one of the most cost effective cars I have owned. Yes, it rides like a truck and has some minor electrical short issues sometimes, but it has been good to me for more than 130,000 miles now. Does not even burn oil! I am enjoying it much more now that I have pulled the fuse on the ABS and have total control over my driving.
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laz wrote:

No. But your whole issue is about ABS on an icy road you said you were doing 50mph on. Doesn't take a psychic to know thats plain stupid.
> If 50 MPH driving is plain

Oh, Thats very true. Lots of VERY stupid people on the road. Especially when they drive 50mph+ on icy roads.

Too bad. Your speed is determined by how much time you have rather than the highway conditions? Good grief.

Well you should have learned your lesson then. Your lack of stopping ability was due to a combination of speed and ice. Not ABS.

I have the same system. Its not the best but it did not cause your problems. Speed on ice did. I do not care for ABS myself but its not what caused your problems. You caused them and you still have not learned.

Geez...what part of ICE + SPEED = Can't Stop do you not yet understand? There is no traction in those conditions. What the heck do expect ABS to do? Magically increase your traction? Amazing, simply amazing.

If I'm on a downgrade on hard smooth ice at 30mph then a mile to stop can be expected if traction can't be obtained. Better tires, chains, studs, etc. might have helped but ABS???? You need to understand what ABS does. You still seem to think it somehow increases traction. IT DOES NOT!!

It prevents the tires from locking up on icy surfaces. Once the tires lock up you have almost no control over the vehicle. Before ABS was invented people pumped the brakes to slow down on slick surfaces. ABS simply does the same thing automatically. You do understand why you pump the brakes right???

Um, not true. Anyone behind me could have gone around. Nobody did because they knew better considering the conditions. I was doing 30mph on a slick surface where I should have been doing only 10-15. Once I realize my long stopping distance I learned. You still haven't.

Geezzz!! There ya go again. You have no clue what ABS is. HINT: What does ABS stand for? You have rubber and you have ice. No electronic gadget will increase traction. Quit blaming a system that was never designed for what you clearly expect.

Yep, I was. I hadn't realized how slick it was. My mistake and I learned quick.
? You should have had more control over your

Not true. Nobody could stop except for a few that had studded tires on. You have to gain traction in order to stop.

The weight is probably the big factor there. Possibly differences in tires too. ABS in your Sequoia doesn't make it stop quickly on icy roads. It doesn't increase the traction.

No, you almost lost it and blame ABS for something it was not intended for.

You could have pumped the brakes manually even with the fuse in. If you don't then it tells me you don't have proper winter driving skills.
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Ya gave me a great idea... I take my S&W 357 Mag with me on an icy morning; volunteer to drive carpool that day with a car full of passengers; drive about 120 MPH against traffic; put that snub nose barrel into my mouth and I'll pull the trigger (while still bitch'n about the ABS technology - of course). Now that sounds like a GREAT way to go, wouldn't you agree?
You all make it seem like nobody has ANY common sense but you guys. Nobody knows how to drive better than you guys. Trust me, I would not be alive today after having driven well over 850,000 miles in my life (mostly in vehicles without ABS), if I were a total lunatic - like some of you paint me out to be. Even my Shrink told me that I was NOT a total lunatic - nor totally stupid! So there! As long as everyone realizes that THEY are not necessarily the BEST driver out there, they probably will not be over-confident and put themselves and others into jeopardy.
I have to stop being sarcastic in newsgroups cause most folks take things way too seriously - then they get all worked up thinking that Everyone, but them, is a total NutCase!
By the way, I, too, drove under 30 MPH most the way home from work tonight (for 1.5 damn hours - and it just about killed me - NOT) - and most of the time I was the only one of the ICY country road and highway! See old farts CAN learn new tricks!!! ;-)
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Maybe it would help if you simply looked at the purpose of ABS.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/Equipment/absbrakes.html
Questions and Answers Regarding
ANTILOCK BRAKE SYSTEMS (ABS)
When used properly, an antilock brake system (ABS) is a safe and effective braking system. ABS allows the driver to maintain directional stability,control over steering, and in some situations, to reduce stopping distances during emergency braking situation, particularly on wet and slippery road surface. To gain this safety advantage, drivers must learn how to operate their ABS correctly.
What is ABS? An antilock braking system works with the regular or foundation brakes on your vehicle. ABS simply keeps your base brakes from locking up. In vehicles not equipped with ABS, the driver can manually pump the brakes to prevent wheel lockup. In vehicles equipped with ABS, the driver's foot remains firmly on the brake pedal, allowing the system to automatically pump the brakes.
Why is that important? When your brakes lock up on wet and slippery roads or during a panic stop, you lose steering control and your vehicle can spin. Rear wheel ABS prevents wheel lockup so that your car stays in a straight line. If your car has ABS control on all four wheels, you also keep steering control. If you have steering control, it is possible to avoid a crash by steering around hazards if a complete stop cannot be accomplished in time.
How do I know whether my vehicle has ABS? Most newer car models offer ABS as either standard or optional equipment. There are different ways to find out whether your car has an antilock brake system: * Read your owner's manual * Check your instrument panel for an amber ABS indicator light after you turn on the ignition. * When you buy, lease or rent, ask your dealer or rental car company.
Will I notice anything when the ABS is working? In many vehicles, drivers may experience a rapid pulsation of the brake pedal--almost as if the brakes are pushing back at you. Sometimes the pedal could suddenly drop. Also, the valves in the ABS controller may make a noise that sounds like grinding or buzzing. In some cars you may feel a slight vibration--this means the ABS is working. It is important NOT to take your foot off the brake pedal when you hear noise or feel pulsations, but instead continue to apply firm pressure.
Does ABS change the way I should use the brakes? You should not pump your brakes if you have ABS. Just hold your foot firmly on the brakes pedal and remember that you can still steer.
How does ABS work? What ABS does is similar to a person pumping the brakes. It automatically changes the pressure in your car's brake lines to maintain maximum brake performance just short of locking up the wheels. ABS does this very rapidly with electronics.
Do cars with ABS stop more quickly than cars without? ABS is designed to help the driver maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not make the car stop more quickly. ABS may shorten stopping distances on wet or slippery roads and many systems will shorten stopping distances on dry roads. On very soft surfaces, such as loose gravel or unpacked snow, an ABS system may actually lengthen stopping distances. In wet or slippery conditions, you should still make sure you drive carefully, always keep a safe distance behind the vehicle in front of you, and maintain a speed consistent with the road conditions.
Are all antilock systems the same? They are all very similar in the way they control brake pressure, but some sytems are designed to prevent only the rear wheels from locking up. These rear-wheel-only systems are found on pickups and sport-utility vehicles. Rear-wheel ABS keeps your vehicle from spinning out of control, but you will not have steering control if the front wheels lock up. All other ABS systems-including those for cars and minivans--are designed to keep all four wheels from locking up. If you own a pickup or sport-utility vehicle, you can check your owner's manual to see what type of ABS you have.
How can I familiarize myself with ABS? Read your owner's manual for more details on the complete operation and benefits of ABS. The antilock brake system is speed sensitive, and will not activate at very slow speeds. One way to familiarize yourself with the operation of ABS is to test drive the vehicle at a speed above which the ABS activates (usually above 10 mph) in an unobstructed parking lot and apply the brakes firmly. It is easier to activate the ABS on a wet and slippery road surface. The antilock system should prevent the wheels from skidding. Pulsation may be felt in the brake pedal and you may hear a clicking sound. Avoid pumping the brake, even if the pedal is pulsating.
Where Can I get more information about ABS? Call the NHTSA Auto Safety Hotline on 1-888-327-4236, 1-888-DASH-2-DOT.

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Laz wrote: Designed "NOT MAKE THE CAR STOP MORE QUICKLY" - I rest my case! On my Rodeo the ABS gave me a false sense of security not knowing how long it takes to stop at any given time. This unknown COULD cause people to crash into the cars in front of them since it is hard to know and judge just how long it will take the vehicle to come to a complete stop! However, If you are in a controlled forward slide with wheels manually locked periodically at least one gets a better chance of sensing and reacting to the speed reduction! If the speed is not reduced fast enough, creating an emergency, usually there is plenty of time to take action to maybe drive off the road into a field or somewhere safer like onto higher snow on the side of the road to avoid a bad crash. PLUS as I explained before - in most cases - the snow that accumulates in front of each tire during manual wheel lock up will slow the vehicle additionally. Thanks for the links by the way. I did learn something useful. One can always learn something new no matter how much one thinks they know. Like I already knew that pumping the breaks on ABS systems was not recommended but previous posters did not know this. I did not know in general which ABS systems are segregated to which types of vehicles.

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laz wrote:

If your wheels lock up you will stop slower, not faster. They lock up because the friction between the brake rotor/drum and disc/shoe exceeds the friction between the rubber and ice. Your guess that snow piled up in front of a skidding tire is absurd but the details as to why would be too complicated for you! The studies clearly show that if your Rodeo did not ABS you most likely would have lost control of the vehicle.
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laz wrote:

Not so at all. We just know what ABS stands for and what it does or doesn't do.
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Bad idea. Although it looks good in movies, many folks just end up blowing their faces off, leaving them with no face, no access to guns, and still alive. The temple is much better. Or a shotgun. ;-)

You see a shrink? That means you ARE crazy! heh
Seriously, after several near misses and didn't-misses, it's easy to take out that frustration on posters. At least here folks can really dig in, where as on the street, a well chosen finger just doesn't convey one's true feelings.
Pagan

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