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have
BMW
40
of
of
load-balancing
same
What the heck is a "load balancing hitch"? Most Trooper type vehicles here are rated for 3 to 3.5 tonnes which is the legal maximum with over-run brakes.
My uncle has a Ford F-350 CrewCab with a 7.0L Turbo Diesel, that

you're
likely
over,
4 tonnes is the rated maximum for Land Rover and Land Cruiser here with linked brakes such as air brakes fitted. There may be other rules such as tachograph driving monitors which need to be fitted.

3.2L V6

light.
pickup
$18,000 US,

costs less

those
trailers
situation.
What I may do with my X5 with factory tow pack is not at all representative of what the majority do or that of the general trend. As it happens I have only towed once with the X5 in 6 months and that was just to deliver an empty trailer when all the other vehicles were in use. I have no intention of using it to tow at all if I can help it.
Huw
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wrote:

Just what it sounds like.. it is mounted to the towing vehicle in such a way that the load on the tongue of the trailer is properly balanced across all 4 tires. And as far as 3 tons on a Trooper? I've looked up specifications for the last year they made the Trooper. max towing is 4500 pounds, or 2.25 tons. NOT ANYWHERE CLOSE to 6000-7000 pounds.

7700lbs, 2004 Land Rover Range Rover with the biggest engine.. Retail price: $61,000 I can get 3 times that towing capacity for $20,000 - again.. economics?

You're better off trying to tow 3.5 tons with that BMW than you are with a Trooper. The X5 has a 6,000lb towing capacity. 3 tons. SO you'd only overweight it by 1000 lbs... and it appears that BMW gave both the I6 and the two V8 engines the same towing capacity, so my guess is they lowballed that figure and the V8s can possible tow slightly more.
But, at prices ranging from $39,500 - $66,800, You'd still have to be an idiot to think that's economical.
Chuck Burns
Chuck Burns
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Huw wrote:

Load balancing hitch is another name for weight distribution hitch where much of the trailers load is put to the front of the tow vehicle and tounge weight is greatly reduced. If you are towing 6,000lbs with a simple trailer tounge on the hitch ball and nothing more then you're begging for trouble. Do you have anti-sway devices? This is sounding more and more like towing is just decades behind in safety and capability in the UK. No way would people here dream of towing that kind of load with such a lightweight vehicle and without proper hitches.

Anything trailer over about 1 ton here has to have brakes irregardless of whats towing it.
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vehicles
where
I suspect the hitch is a bit stronger than you imagine. Officially, there should be about a 150kg nose weight on the tow ball but certainly in the case of livestock..... it moves...... and the weight can vary from negative to over half a ton. Why you stste that it is begging for touble, I cannot imagine. Certainly, as I said, it is very commonplace around here. Recreational towed caravans which typically weigh less than one ton bit have a large volume are certainly just as tricky to tow and tend to sway just as readily. My two trailers are both 16ft long by 6ft 6inches wide. One is a twin axle drop side and the other is a tri axle with demountable livestock container. Both have vehicle loading ramps. Search for "Ifor Williams trailers" and you will find them

Not needed on these combinations. The BMW apparently has an electronic anti-sway system where sway is senced and corrected through the ABS and engine management system. I do not intend to find out if it works.
This is sounding

hitches.
You speak from a position of considerable ignorance Sir. Anyone who tows above a certain weight or drives a combination plated as capable of this weight and qualified for a driving licence after 1996 has to pass a seperate stringent towing test which costs nearly 200UKP. The whole vehicle is also subject to a yearly inspection where towing gear is inspected.

rules
irregardless
You misunderstand. Brakes, which may be drawbar actuated over-run type, are compulsory above 1/2 ton but additional rules apply above 3.5 tonnes where powered brakes, such as air or vacuum brakes are compulsory.
Huw
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Huw wrote:

Ignorance? You seem to have no knowledge of hitch systems including weight distribution or anti sway devices. Your beamers AWD anti-sway is not gonna cut it for a heavy trailer. It's the trailer/hitch that needs the anti-sway. A quick search on RV's and trailers in the UK suggests weight distribution or load equalizing hitches are wide spread in the UK just as they are in the USA. The fact you have no knowledge of them leads me to believe the ignorance is on your part. Your beamer can't replace anti-sway with sensors. It can help control your vehicle when the trailer does sway but does nothing to stop the trailer from swaying.

Drawbar brakes are known as surge brakes in the USA. They were popular about 10 to 20 years ago but are seldom used anymore. There are numerous problems with this type of brake. Sounds like the UK is behind the times. Actually, I dont think that because again, a quick search shows more typical electronic brake controllers and electric brakes are wide spread in the UK just like the USA with many of the same brands.
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who
capable
to
The
gear
Lack of knowledge.
You seem to have no knowledge of hitch systems including

There is no way to redistibute weight from the back wheels of a Trooper type vehicle to the front other than to alter the vertical load on the hitch. Fifth wheel type hitches which replace the load area of a pick up and places the vertical load between the front and back axle is not relevant here for this class of vehicle.

I have experience of several friction type anti sway devices and none are particularly effective with heavy loads. They are most effective on relitively light trailers which have a large surface area.
Your beamers AWD anti-sway is

Probably not but I do not intend to tow particularly heavy trailers with this vehicle. About 2 tonnes will be its limit I think, and then only very occasionally.
It's the trailer/hitch that needs

None of my combinations need it at all. Although it has to be said that the triple axle weighs well over a ton empty and when fully loaded the speed must be kept below 40mph.
A quick search on RV's and trailers in the UK suggests

the UK

can't
when
swaying.
Hitches in the UK and Europe are almost always of the rear 50mm ball type. The military may use a higher mounted pintle type but these are not common in civilian use. Fifth wheel turntable type hitches are very uncommon below 15 ton trucks although I do see the very occassional unit about every few months. [if I owned one, no doubt I would see it every day though :-)]

above
popular
behind
search
are
brands.
Electronic brake controllers are not used at all in the UK as far as I know on this class of vehicle. Please show how widespread this type of brake is in the UK if you have some evidence.
Huw
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Huw wrote:

Sigh....now you are really showing your ignorance. Please look up weight distribution or load equalizing hitches. You have no comprehension of how such a hitch works even though they are widely used both in the USA and UK and everywhere else in the world. Please read up on them before making such a statement.

Sigh. Small anti-sway devices like that are for smaller loads. Read up on proper hitch systems for heavy loads before saying there are no effective systems.

Well sure without a proper hitch system you gotta keep the speed down. Find out how people tow 30 to 35 foot long trailers weighing 15,000lbs at 65mph+ safely. No hitch can do this alone. They MUST use a weight distribution type hitch.

Drawbar or surge brakes in the USA have long been outdated and in many states no longer legal irregardless of the load. Old technology. Some people like them because of their simplicity but they are fast becoming phased out. Hydraulic trailer brakes that are tied to a tow vehicles hydraulic system have also been phased out.
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used
read up

They are not used in the UK at all and not to my knowledge in the EU. Show me where in the UK they are sold and widely used with a web reference or a key word in google which will bring up a number of UK reference. I travel extensively with and without a trailer and have never seen one. Mainly because one cannot defeat the laws of physics and reditribute the vertical load between the axles of the towing vehicle using a rear fender tow hitch.

none
effective
Read up

Show me a type commonly fitted to Trooper type vehicles other than a friction type, either ball or flat pad type. I would be most interested.

down.
15,000lbs
weight
Good Lord. They "MUST"? Of course they don't. A drawbar and pin will suffice and often does, although trailers this large are never towed by a Trooper as far as I know.

many
Some
becoming
vehicles
Over-run brakes are very efficient nowadays and not prone to failure. No problem whatsoever with their use in the majority of the World. Maybe drivers cannot cope where you are, but that is your problem. It may surprise you, though it should not after recent events, that there is a whole big World out there that does not play by Your rules and does not wish to. Your assertion that small pick-ups cannot possibly cope with a ton payload and your insistence that load distribution hitches are widely used here, shows your basically provincial nature.
Huw
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Huw wrote:

Please do not attempt to tell me that weight distribution hitches are not possible. They have been used for decades. The fact you don't know about them does not mean they do not exist. Anyone (smart that is) in the UK that is towing a large heavy trailer is going to have a weight distribution or load equalizing hitch installed. These hitches have two torsion bars mounted to each side of the receiver and attach to the frame of the trailer usually with short chains pulled extremely tight. Without it a standard Class IV hitch such is commonly installed on large passenger cars, trucks and SUV's is rated only up to about 6,000lbs.
Heres some info I quickly found on UK websites. I'll quote the relative parts.
http://www.eurostream.co.uk/towvehicles.htm Special towing equipment - weight distribution bars, anti sway control etc. is used to compensate (see later comments)
I did notice the UK regulations state the brake controller must be in the trailer and no user adjustable controls can be in your tow vehicle. That is just backwards for safety and is the way the US rules were about 2 decades ago. In the US the drawbar type braking system is no longer used except in very rare cases. This type of brake system requires that the tow vehicle can stop. If the tow vehicles brakes fail then the trailers brakes will never be engaged. I am suprised that this method of trailer braking is still the law in the UK. It is very unsafe. In the USA trailers must have an onboard emergency brake system that engages if the tow vehicle and trailer seperate. In addition to that the tow vehicle has a brake controller of its own. Pendelum controllers as the UK article notes have been phased out in the past 5 years or so here.
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EU.
UK
seen
vehicle
are
know
Oh but I do know about them and the fact that they have been used a while does not mean they do anything worthwhile to justify their use outside the America's. You were the one who insisted that they are used widely here in the UK. Please justify this claim as I have asked you before.
Anyone (smart that is) in

weight
Justify this claim please. I have said that they are not used and I live here. Show me where they are retailed in the UK and what proportion is used. If they are used at all, then I contend that it is way less than 1% of trailers. Up to the 4.0 ton legal limit for this type of trailer a standard ball hitch is always used. Trailers larger than this are towed by commercial trucks which have pintle type hitches and use the trucks standard air brake system and are subject to heavy goods vehicle licence restrictions.
These hitches have two

tight.
large
Oh so now they can pull 3 tons. Early on in this thread this was a huge load not to be pulled behind a Trooper type SUV.

relative
control
This is a quote from the US based site START In the UK, there is no legal weight ratio requirement. The UK Caravan Club recommend however aiming for a towed load 85% of the car's kerb weight and never exceed 100%. Many Police officers would consider higher than 100% unroadworthy. Also, you risk prosecution if you exceed the manufacturer's stated maximum weight limits. In the US the tow vehicle is sometimes lighter than the trailer, because trailers are much bigger. Special towing equipment - weight distribution bars, anti sway control etc. is used to compensate (see later comments
END
This mistake ridden web page is incorrect in its comment about what a police officer would "consider". In the UK they do not "consider", they enforce the law. The law states that the tow vehicle may tow up to its recomended maximum towing weight up to a maximum of 3.5 tons with standard brakes. Other licence restrictions may apply. It is very common for the trailer to exceed the tow car weight. Caravans are an exception where they are fairly light but bulky structures much effected by wind and overtaking trucks. The comment about special towing equipment is specific to the US as is obvious from the article. Please reasess your comprehension ability.
Another comment from the page. In the form of a question this time LOL. START Steve - are load equalizing hitches accepted as a way of reducing noseweight by UK vehicle manufacturers? If so are there any load equalizing hitches that are type approved? Otherwise what does the person who wants to tow a heavy trailer that meets the 7m/2.3m size limits using a post 1998 4x4 sized vehicle do? Hitch weight for even the new 19ft Bambi quoted by Airstream is 500lbs END
In other words the author does not know his arse from his elbow :-))))))) In answer...... NO they are not an accepted way. NO, I know of no hitches of this type which are type approved although there may be one out there [i doubt it]. Please try again :-)))) What a person does is to use a SUV with sufficient strength to cope with a higher noseweight or buy a sensible trailer which is designed to tow well in local conditions. I have stated before that my Trooper and other tow vehicles have to cope with a varying nose weight of up to 1000 lbs due to the nature of the load. This is very common and is of no particular problem for an SUV or pick-up within their tow capacity limit. Car hitches are generally not as strong and not as well attached to the chassis and may be more sensitive to nose weight.

in
vehicle.
no
fail
this
system
to
5
Electrical braking systems are not used in the UK wherever sited. Your braking system and hitch system is not relevant elsewhere despite your insistence that they are used commonly here. THEY ARE NOT. Get that? THEY ARE N. O. T. not. Furthermore, we have no problem with the extremely efficient system we do have.
Huw
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Huw wrote:

No you do not know about them. You told me it is against the laws of physics to shift the weight forward without moving the hitch point. Weight distribution hitches do exactly that and they follow the laws of physics.

In the UK you can't tow above the weight of the tow vehicle. The Trooper weighs far less than 6,000lbs. Curb weight of the trooper is about 4,500lbs depending on version. In the USA the trooper is rated to tow only 5,000lbs. So if you tow 6,000lbs you are exceeding the UK Trooper versions tow rating as well as exceeding legal laws in the UK.

No, it is a UK based website .co.uk is not in the USA.

That is just absurd. Why not use a weight distribution hitch rather than applying all of the load to the back end of a vehicle? In the USA people buy 3/4 or 1 ton and sometimes larger trucks and SUV's to tow heavy loads. They also use proper hitch systems which dramatically improves vehicle handling and safety. The fact you chose not to do so does not imply these systems aren't greatly benificial. The UK uses what the USA did 20 years ago. In the next 10-20 years I'd imagine laws will be changed to allow for safer more capable hitch systems in the UK as they are tested and proven there.

A system that was used here for many decades. Improvements in technology have allowed great advancements in tow handling and safety. Those advancements have not reached many parts of the world including the UK. Your system requires that the tow vehicle brakes work. Failure of the tow vehicles brakes also means that the trailer will not brake. Thats why this system was abandoned years ago. Efficient in terms of simplicity yes but very unsafe.
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wrote:

And for the record. 3/4ton is the payload capacity, NOT towing. Ford Fullsize trucks F-150 is a 1/4ton truck, the F-250 is a half-ton truck, and the F-350 is a 3/4 ton truck, and the F-450 is a 1ton truck.
My uncle has 3/4 ton F-350 with a 7.0L Turbo diesel.. 3/4 ton payload capacity.. or 750 pounds.. but thats just how much it can carry in the bed of the truck. It's also got a 15,000lb towing capacity..
Chuck Burns
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have
I do know this and find it hard to believe that trucks of that size only carry as much as an old Subaru or Hyundai pick up. All Isuzu, Mazda, Toyota Hi-lux type pick-ups here have suspension and running gear rated for one ton though they may be rated to tow as little as 2.5 tons.
Ford

truck, and

payload
the bed

Isn't that just ridiculous!
It's also got a 15,000lb towing capacity..

So it should with that Powerstroke engine as long as it can handle the load safely.
Huw
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Huw wrote:

Isuzu, Mazda and Toyota do not make a mini sized truck capable of a 1 ton payload and they just barely come close to a 2.5 ton (5000 lbs) tow capacity. They only have small 4cyl or approx. 3 liter V6's.
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size
running
as
1
tow
Does it seem incomprehensible that elsewhere 4 cylinder pick up trucks in that class have running gear that officially enables them to carry a ton or more, consistently, legally quickly safely and with ease?
Huw
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wrote:

Yes.. because in order to do so, you'd need more than 4 cylinders. I managed to find a UK auto specifications website, and guess what... THEY HAVE THE EXACT SAME NUMBERS
Chuck
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wrote:

Oh, and a friend of mine used to use his 4cylinder Ford Ranger to pull a 2500lb boat. His truck was only rated for 1800lbs towing. After doing so for a couple of months, his entire drive train needed to be rebuilt, the universal joint was warped, the gears in the rear-end gearbox had lost several teeth and made a hellacious racket, and the torque converter on his tranny had actually cracked. And he had replaced his factory-installed tranny cooler with an aftermarket one. The last time we launched his boat, he couldn't get back up the ramp with the boat.. he hit the gas, there was a loud whine, and the truck rolled BACKWARDS.. in 1st, he almost put it in the bayou.. luckily there were other boaters there with larger trucks.. some guy in an old Chevy 1500 Silverado had a winch on the front, and pulled him and the boat/trailer up out of the water...
I live in "The Deep South" and tranmission coolers are STANDARD on ALL domestic vehicles with automatics (and Air condition is standard on ALL vehicles.. no one wants to be stuck in traffic with no breeze, 99F, 100% humidity)
Chuck Burns
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trucks
carry
pull a

European Ranger is only rated to a light 1800kgs also, but note that this is twice what yours is rated for, that it is the Indonesian truck, that it carries a ton and that it is only available with a four cylinder diesel, though the Mazda version is also available with a petrol four. Three different cab sizes are available. It does not sell in huge numbers here, mainly due to the stupidly low towing limit. The Mitsubishi is number one though the fantastically capable new Nissan is gaining popularity fast. The new Isuzu may well improve on its current share. If it does not, then Isuzu will die in the UK.
Huw
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four
I should correct the above. These vehicles are of course made by Auto Alliance Thailand. Below is a quote from the Company.
AutoAlliance(ThaiLand) Co.,Ltd. was established as a joint venture between Ford Motor Company and Mazda Motor Corporation, to manufacture a one ton pick up truck, passenger car and components for both local and overseas markets. Our plant comprises of stamping, body, painting, engine assembly, trim and final assembly and KD packing. Currently we produce 2 kinds of product below;
Huw
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trucks
carry
I
THEY
Use google to search "whatvan uk" and follow the links to 'van search' and look for ford ranger [it will be the Asian version] Mazda B2500 [same vehicle as Ford] ToyotaHiLux, MitsubishiL200 and Nissan. All these Asian pick-up trucks which are by far the most popular here along with Isuzu have a payload of more than 1 ton. Towing is not the best feature of this class, the maximum load varying from just above 1.5 tonnes to a maximum of 3.0 tons.
As far as the Trooper is concerned "whatcar.com" will confirm that the latest diesel version is certified to tow 3.5 tons which many certainly do consistently and safely. Very few accidents indeed result from this type of vehicle towing. By far the majority of towing accidents result from light but bulky caravans losing it on fast multi lane roads. These things benefit from friction stabilisers, no doubt about it because the damping action is not overwhelmed by the mass.
Huw
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