auto-trans dip stick?

Nope. Toyota, Mazda, Nissan do not produce a mini truck like that. The truck is simply too light irregardless of any running gear. Highest on the list is Toyotas Tacoma with a 1480lb payload capacity. That is 200 or so lbs higher than the ratings on Mazda or Nissan. Don't get me wrong, they are great trucks. I've owned several. But they aren't made for 2,000lb payloads nor towing more than about 5,000lbs (with V6).

Reply to
Miles
Loading thread data ...

The engine isn't really the problem. More HP will help with the tow capacity but not much for the payload. Better springs and heavier axles will boost it some but the main problem is the frame which nobody is gonna replace. The mini trucks are also too light for handling heavy loads.

Reply to
Miles

The 2002 Toyota Hi-lux with V6 has a payload rating of 1034kg. That is not the maximum you can put into the bed of the truck. That is the maximum payload period meaning people, gas, luggage and whats in the bed. The tow rating on this as listed by Toyota is 1800kg. Pretty much the same as in the USA.

Reply to
Miles

They are not used in the UK at all and not to my knowledge in the EU. Show me where in the UK they are sold and widely used with a web reference or a key word in google which will bring up a number of UK reference. I travel extensively with and without a trailer and have never seen one. Mainly because one cannot defeat the laws of physics and reditribute the vertical load between the axles of the towing vehicle using a rear fender tow hitch.

effective

Read up

Show me a type commonly fitted to Trooper type vehicles other than a friction type, either ball or flat pad type. I would be most interested.

15,000lbs

weight

Good Lord. They "MUST"? Of course they don't. A drawbar and pin will suffice and often does, although trailers this large are never towed by a Trooper as far as I know.

becoming

vehicles

Over-run brakes are very efficient nowadays and not prone to failure. No problem whatsoever with their use in the majority of the World. Maybe drivers cannot cope where you are, but that is your problem. It may surprise you, though it should not after recent events, that there is a whole big World out there that does not play by Your rules and does not wish to. Your assertion that small pick-ups cannot possibly cope with a ton payload and your insistence that load distribution hitches are widely used here, shows your basically provincial nature.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

B2500

So you concede that they can carry a ton plus a 34kg driver [in practice they carry a ton or more with hefty driver and passenger]. Thank you. You will note that this is a whole lot more than your Powerstroke Ford

1/2 or 3/4 tonner LOL. The tow rating range is as I stated.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

Are you serious? I suspect you are mearly a Troll.

The

LOL! Of course they do make trucks like that. The USA is only a small fraction of the World and I have given you sufficient information to find the trucks on line. It is unfortunate that my news server dumps posts with internet links otherwise I could take you straight there. But it ain't rocket science to find out what is available. As for these trucks being too light, what are you on? The Isuzu TF has an unladen weight of 1675kgs and a gross weight of 2750kgs which gives a payload of 1075kgs for the 4wd version. I can assure you that it has a goddamn awful stiff ride unladen and a nicely controlled ride fully laden. The 2wd version has the same payload. These are work trucks and are expected to work with a load on board and are built to withstand overloading to a large extent. They are used thus in many parts of the World including the middle and far East and Asia where they are the primary workhorses in many extremely demanding conditions. Open your eyes man and don't make a fool of yourself.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

ease?

what... THEY

More hp will alter tow capacity? Not so. My Land Rover has only 67hp and is rated to tow a maximum legal limit of 4 tons but as far as the vehicle itself is concerned, it is rated for 6 tons. My 200hp Land Cruiser has a similar rating..

Better springs and heavier axles

heavy loads.

The more weight they carry, the heavier they are! Frame distortion is not a problem on any Asian built pick up AFAIK. My company has one Hilux which has carried and towed ridiculous [over]loads over some 15 years is still in good condition after 200+ thousand miles, one diesel engine and original transmission [which is admittedly unusual for this vehicle model]. Frame distortion is not a problem but rust is, though this particular one has plenty of oil dripping from the cargo hold onto the frame. My Land Rover High Capacity pick up is similarly good after 20 years of heavier towing though 3/4 of a ton is enough of a payload in the deck of this one or the handling is very shitty. This is due to its softish coil springs combined with an optional ride levelling device which tends to act as a fulcrum around which the body rolls.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

"Huw" wrote >

I should correct the above. These vehicles are of course made by Auto Alliance Thailand. Below is a quote from the Company.

AutoAlliance(ThaiLand) Co.,Ltd. was established as a joint venture between Ford Motor Company and Mazda Motor Corporation, to manufacture a one ton pick up truck, passenger car and components for both local and overseas markets. Our plant comprises of stamping, body, painting, engine assembly, trim and final assembly and KD packing. Currently we produce 2 kinds of product below;

Huw

Reply to
Huw

Please do not attempt to tell me that weight distribution hitches are not possible. They have been used for decades. The fact you don't know about them does not mean they do not exist. Anyone (smart that is) in the UK that is towing a large heavy trailer is going to have a weight distribution or load equalizing hitch installed. These hitches have two torsion bars mounted to each side of the receiver and attach to the frame of the trailer usually with short chains pulled extremely tight. Without it a standard Class IV hitch such is commonly installed on large passenger cars, trucks and SUV's is rated only up to about 6,000lbs.

Heres some info I quickly found on UK websites. I'll quote the relative parts.

formatting link
towing equipment - weight distribution bars, anti sway control etc. is used to compensate (see later comments)

I did notice the UK regulations state the brake controller must be in the trailer and no user adjustable controls can be in your tow vehicle. That is just backwards for safety and is the way the US rules were about 2 decades ago. In the US the drawbar type braking system is no longer used except in very rare cases. This type of brake system requires that the tow vehicle can stop. If the tow vehicles brakes fail then the trailers brakes will never be engaged. I am suprised that this method of trailer braking is still the law in the UK. It is very unsafe. In the USA trailers must have an onboard emergency brake system that engages if the tow vehicle and trailer seperate. In addition to that the tow vehicle has a brake controller of its own. Pendelum controllers as the UK article notes have been phased out in the past 5 years or so here.

Reply to
Miles

More HP in itself won't increase tow capacity unless other factors such as suspension, tow vehicle weight etc are also taken into consideration. Torque is a bigger player in towing. A gas engine will usually have a higher HP rating than a similar sized diesel. However, the diesel will have far more torque and thus a higher tow rating with everything else being equal.

You do not tow as heavy of loads as is common in the USA as far as for personal/recreation use. Full size trucks are not as common in the UK. I would assume alot of that has to do with the fact your gas prices are about 300% higher than ours.

Reply to
Miles

vehicle

Oh but I do know about them and the fact that they have been used a while does not mean they do anything worthwhile to justify their use outside the America's. You were the one who insisted that they are used widely here in the UK. Please justify this claim as I have asked you before.

Anyone (smart that is) in

weight

Justify this claim please. I have said that they are not used and I live here. Show me where they are retailed in the UK and what proportion is used. If they are used at all, then I contend that it is way less than 1% of trailers. Up to the 4.0 ton legal limit for this type of trailer a standard ball hitch is always used. Trailers larger than this are towed by commercial trucks which have pintle type hitches and use the trucks standard air brake system and are subject to heavy goods vehicle licence restrictions.

These hitches have two

tight.

Oh so now they can pull 3 tons. Early on in this thread this was a huge load not to be pulled behind a Trooper type SUV.

relative

This is a quote from the US based site START In the UK, there is no legal weight ratio requirement. The UK Caravan Club recommend however aiming for a towed load 85% of the car's kerb weight and never exceed 100%. Many Police officers would consider higher than 100% unroadworthy. Also, you risk prosecution if you exceed the manufacturer's stated maximum weight limits. In the US the tow vehicle is sometimes lighter than the trailer, because trailers are much bigger. Special towing equipment - weight distribution bars, anti sway control etc. is used to compensate (see later comments

END

This mistake ridden web page is incorrect in its comment about what a police officer would "consider". In the UK they do not "consider", they enforce the law. The law states that the tow vehicle may tow up to its recomended maximum towing weight up to a maximum of 3.5 tons with standard brakes. Other licence restrictions may apply. It is very common for the trailer to exceed the tow car weight. Caravans are an exception where they are fairly light but bulky structures much effected by wind and overtaking trucks. The comment about special towing equipment is specific to the US as is obvious from the article. Please reasess your comprehension ability.

Another comment from the page. In the form of a question this time LOL. START Steve - are load equalizing hitches accepted as a way of reducing noseweight by UK vehicle manufacturers? If so are there any load equalizing hitches that are type approved? Otherwise what does the person who wants to tow a heavy trailer that meets the 7m/2.3m size limits using a post 1998 4x4 sized vehicle do? Hitch weight for even the new 19ft Bambi quoted by Airstream is 500lbs END

In other words the author does not know his arse from his elbow :-))))))) In answer...... NO they are not an accepted way. NO, I know of no hitches of this type which are type approved although there may be one out there [i doubt it]. Please try again :-)))) What a person does is to use a SUV with sufficient strength to cope with a higher noseweight or buy a sensible trailer which is designed to tow well in local conditions. I have stated before that my Trooper and other tow vehicles have to cope with a varying nose weight of up to 1000 lbs due to the nature of the load. This is very common and is of no particular problem for an SUV or pick-up within their tow capacity limit. Car hitches are generally not as strong and not as well attached to the chassis and may be more sensitive to nose weight.

vehicle.

Electrical braking systems are not used in the UK wherever sited. Your braking system and hitch system is not relevant elsewhere despite your insistence that they are used commonly here. THEY ARE NOT. Get that? THEY ARE N. O. T. not. Furthermore, we have no problem with the extremely efficient system we do have.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

consideration.

Funny then that my 67 hp diesel has the same tow capacity as my 200hp diesel Toyota and substantially higher capacity than my 185hp diesel BMW.

prices

The size of load behind larger vehicles is not relevant. What is relevant and interesting is that we tow larger loads with smaller vehicles in the Trooper, pajero, Discovery class. I do not believe the fuel cost is an overriding factor because plenty of Range Rover type vehicles are sold with petrol engines. Diesel is the fuel of choice though for this size class as it is increasingly for even small vehicles due to the advantages of modern design.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

No you do not know about them. You told me it is against the laws of physics to shift the weight forward without moving the hitch point. Weight distribution hitches do exactly that and they follow the laws of physics.

In the UK you can't tow above the weight of the tow vehicle. The Trooper weighs far less than 6,000lbs. Curb weight of the trooper is about

4,500lbs depending on version. In the USA the trooper is rated to tow only 5,000lbs. So if you tow 6,000lbs you are exceeding the UK Trooper versions tow rating as well as exceeding legal laws in the UK.

No, it is a UK based website .co.uk is not in the USA.

That is just absurd. Why not use a weight distribution hitch rather than applying all of the load to the back end of a vehicle? In the USA people buy 3/4 or 1 ton and sometimes larger trucks and SUV's to tow heavy loads. They also use proper hitch systems which dramatically improves vehicle handling and safety. The fact you chose not to do so does not imply these systems aren't greatly benificial. The UK uses what the USA did 20 years ago. In the next 10-20 years I'd imagine laws will be changed to allow for safer more capable hitch systems in the UK as they are tested and proven there.

A system that was used here for many decades. Improvements in technology have allowed great advancements in tow handling and safety. Those advancements have not reached many parts of the world including the UK. Your system requires that the tow vehicle brakes work. Failure of the tow vehicles brakes also means that the trailer will not brake. Thats why this system was abandoned years ago. Efficient in terms of simplicity yes but very unsafe.

Reply to
milesh

Again, its not just the engine. I stated all other things being equal a diesel will tow better because of its higher torque. HP is less important. The rating given by an auto manufacture is based on a combination of engine, vehicle weight, suspension etc. Your beamer is not designed to be a heavy duty tow vehicle irregardless of what engine is in it. So I'm not sure what point you're attempting to make.

Diesel is the preferred choice for towing here in the USA as well. However, federal laws here seem to prevent the wide spread use of diesels. The exception to that is in full size trucks where the diesel engine is common in the 3/4 and 1 tons. Full size trucks probably don't sell well for towing in the UK. This is because of your laws keeping tow capacities under the weight of the tow vehicle. This makes sense because the truck can't be outfitted with a proper hitch system and braking system in the UK. With drawbar braking, no anti-sway and no weight distribution I would not want to tow heavy loads as well. It would be very unsafe. Can you tow above the tow vehicles weight if using a 5th wheel hitch or goosneck on a truck?

Reply to
milesh

diesel

Then let us make it easier for you. A Land Rover may have 67hp 111hp

135hp diesels or a number of petrol engines and apart from a short production run of small petrol engines all are rated to tow 3.5 tons legally. Which tows "better", this is not relevant to the point YOU made. Often the diesel is much lower maximum torque than the petrol, as is indeed the case with my diesel LR.

It is you who is making a point here and I refute it. Clear?

choice

1 ton pick up trucks are by far the highest selling type sold here, although as I have adequately demonstrated, they are physically smaller than your 3/4 ton trucks by quite a margin.

This is because of your laws keeping tow

This is certainly another of your fantasies.

This makes sense because

You have suddenly changed your tune LOL. Until this post you have insisted that the use of "load distribution" hitches and electric brakes is widespread here. So now you admit your ignorance. Thank you.

Anti sway devices are widely used on light trailers up to 3.5 tons but are most common on lighter leisure caravans. Where do you dig up your misinformation from?

and no weight distribution

unsafe.

Your arrogance and ignorance continues to amaze all, I am sure, in the face of facts already pointed out to you in this thread. We can tow above the vehicle weight with most vehicles whether 5th wheel or not. My Trooper weighs just under two tons yet can tow 3 tons [older models] or 3.5 tons with newer units. What is it about this that you cannot comprehend? Have you some kind of learning difficulty? I ask not from a mischievous perspective but from a point where many simple facts seem not to register with you and where sweeping and inaccurate statements are made by you with no basis whatsoever in fact, such as your assertion about widespread UK use of a certain hitch type and the apparent non existence of 1 ton pick-up trucks made by the millions by multinational companies and sold Worldwide. Your assertion as to what is safe and unsafe based on zero knowledge or experience of local conditions and equipment, as demonstrated in this forum, is also indicative of some problem, however slight.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

Uh...No but whatever.

LOL...It was you who stated in all of Europe. When you changed your statement to the UK I failed to take notice. UK is not all of Europe or even close. I have friends in Italy that use more modern towing methods.

From you who stated anti-sway devices were not commonly used. Besides this makes little sense. The lighter the load the less need for anti-sway.

That is complete BS. The methods you have stated you use for towing have been used here for decades. I myself used drawbar braking systems and no weight distribution hitch. This was common practice decades ago. I now tow with more modern equipment and the difference is like night and day. I simply stated that the methods used as YOU described them are old, outdated and unsafe. If what you described is not represetative of actual usage then things maybe different.

Your own statement that there is no way possible to shift the load forward without moving the hitch point well demonstrates you lack of understanding of towing in general.

Reply to
milesh

When you changed your

Europe or

Did I? In fact all Europe has approximately the same or very similar law and tow hitches are metric and European Type Approved, not UK Type Approved.

Besides

Again you miss a main point which is that I stated more than once that they [anti sway devices] are mainly used with light but high volume trailers like caravans. You plainly stated that they were not used here. I did not day this, nor imply it so on what basis did you assert this? The same place where you picked up the phantom UK widespread use of load transfer hitches and electric brakes?

knowledge

understanding

My previous post says everything I wish to say on this. A bit of advice......... When in a hole, stop digging.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

LOL..speaking of digging. First you asked 'what is a weight distribution hitch'. Then when it was explained you stated the laws of physics won't allow it to work. Later you claimed to know all about them. Good grief. I'll continue to tow my vehicle using a hitch that works by breaking the laws of physics and you use the decades old obsolete method.

Reply to
milesh

distribution

Did I ask what it was? Then due to your obvious ignorance, it was to establish if you could distinguish a fifth wheel hitch from the quite eccentric US wt distribution hitch which is frankly of little use in redistributing nose weight effectively in anything other than level road surfaces or more specifically for the well balanced vehicle trailer combinations built here. Where does it move the weight to except back to the trailer through a very high stress point at the vehicle and trailer end? In fact it actually uses tension bars fixed to the vehicle drawbar and tensioned up towards the trailer chassis to compensate for poor trailer load distribution and design at the expense of quite a lot of stress and the absolute necessity of over complex brake systems.

All it does in effect is to use the springs, which are not torsion springs by the way, to winch the drawbar to a level position. If it does what you say and would be of value to UK or European trailers and combinations in the group of vehicles of Trooper size and up to four tons towed, then post a link to a site which explains the mode of operation, geometry and arithmetic where the standard drawbar has a nose weight of between 50 and 150kgs here without it, not just a picture with sales pitch.

The fact is that there is no need to lighten nose weights if the trailer and load is already within the design limits of both trailer and towing vehicle as is the case here. I am still waiting for evidence of its widespread use here as you claimed. There is none of course because it is not used to any extent if at all. [I never say 'never' because there will always be the exception] It was one of your fantasies. As is your assertion that towing must be dreadfully unsafe here. It is not of course and I only see a crashed trailer combo every few years on my travels, yet you claim "I pass the mangled remains of their flipped over vehicles at the bottom of long grades all the time." Funny that. We do not suffer from the same problem here despite your aspersions and claims.

It is not a product to improve towing per se, it is a means of compensating for piss poor trailer design and load distribution at the expense of increased complexity,stress and expense. If your trailers were properly designed in the first place to place an appropriate load on the hitch then there would be no purpose to such an abortion of a device.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

OMG, excuse me while I take a break to laugh hysterically. You didn't ask that question to me so your back peddling is useless! Oh man, now that last paragraph of yours was just classic.

MUHAHAHA....Your complete ignorance for comprehending towing technology is amazing. First you say it breaks the laws of physics and now in a great back peddaling attempt you try to use your lack of knowledge on the subject to say its to compensate for a lack of vehicle design or poor trailer loading. I wanna see you tow a 15,000lb 33' trailer by using a simple tounge on hitchball setup at anything faster than 40mph. Even that fast is pushing it with that type of setup. I know, people do it all the time easily. I see them splatted on hills.

Your last statement cracks me up once again. The brake systems used here are not complex. They were designed to improve safety no matter what the loading after decades of becoming aware of the shortfalls of surge type brakes (Especially when the tow vehicle brakes fail). Actually I think the modern brake controllers are cheaper than the drawbar/surge type brake system. You also do not have to turn it off when backing up like on surge brakes although I am not sure if they did eventually come up with a method around that issue.

Ahhh....you want me to educate you on something you do not understand but refute none the less. You already stated they break the laws of physics. Are you ready to admit that was a wrong statement? Not many

8000lb trailers have only 300lb tounge weight here. Ideally the weight would be higher. But that takes a heavier bigger tow vehicle. We have more of those here than in the UK. I know, go ahead and refute the ideal tounge weights. 300lbs for an 8000lb trailer is way too low unless towing at very slow speeds.

Now that we agree on. I do not have a weight distribution hitch with my

2500lb trailer. I do on my 7,000lb trailer. I tow that trailer with a vehicle capable of towing 15,000lbs. But then you start talking about 8000lbs on a trooper and 300lb tounge weights. That is not ideal loading.

Dreadfully? Didn't say that. We used surge brakes and no weight distribution 20-50 years ago. At the time is seemed acceptable and safe. However, technology in the past several decades has improved on that greatly. I've used both and now would never go back. Its alot more fun to tow. Back then I didn't know the difference. Kind of the situation you're in now.

ROFL...there ya go again. It IS designed to improve towing on ANY vehicle/trailer combination. Not to act as a bandaide patch as you seem to claim. Mock what you do not have ample experience and knowledge of. I have owned and used your systems for many many years. You need to see the difference before making such claims. Reducing tounge weight in a trailer is as easy as moving the axle forward. Yet, trailer manufactures do not do that. There is a reason. We have larger vehicles capable of handling the more ideal heavier tounge loads.

Reply to
Miles

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