Disco Vs Trooper - shocking result!

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In the end HP (and gearing to a lesser degree) still determines how much you can tow or not, surely? Its one thing to have a relatively underpowered LR certified to tow 2.5 tons but your LC can probably do it 3 times faster. Did not realise the 3.1L Trooper had 46hp less than the 3.0L, suppose this will reduce the longivety of the 3.0 engine?

Thats not too difficult, on the highway I have to jack the radio up to full blast at speeds above 130km/h

Surprise

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madiba wrote:

The legal system and manufacturers build strength leading to recommended maximum capacity is the determining factor in the Western World.

Both are rated to 4.0 tons with certain conditions. No, I can assure you that the LC will not tow three times faster. Well, maybe up steep hills. Both can tow such loads at around 35mph on the level and, for safety reasons, slower down even moderate gradients.

suppose
Not at all. If you have a basically good one, then it will likely last a very long time indeed. However, no vehicle is perfect and the Isuzu 3.0 direct injection engine has had a checkered reliability record. When they fail, they are difficult to repair.

to
Is that about 90mph? I don't think that my 3.1 can reach that. Up to 70mph it is quite refined. My LR110 is absolutely flat out at 60mph, which it will reach only on a very long straight or downhill.

The road and engine noise in some of those models is amazing, considering all those that I have tried have had petrol engines and all the 4x4's since 1988 I have owned have been diesel.
Huw
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On or around Thu, 27 May 2004 22:37:25 +0100, "Huw"

130 KPH is just over 80 mph.
new toy will cruise at that quite happily with more to come on the level. I suspect it'll top out about 95, I know that the 3.9 RR will hold a steady 100, but mine's "only" a 3.5
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I'm not sure of the mph, but Austin seems to know. My top speed is about 175km/h
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RL

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my '88 Bighorn with the 4jb1 2.8 turbodiesel engine did 140km/h down the motorway with a full load in the back.
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On Thu, 20 May 2004 03:25:33 +0200, Erik-Jan Geniets

Having got stuck in a forest on the side of a Portugese mountain in a Nissan Micra, I have to dispute this statement.
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QrizB wrote:

I agree, not 'any' of-course. We are talking 4WD's here, Erik-Jan.
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in article x_xpc.11729$7S2.7603@newsfe1-win, Hirsty's at snipped-for-privacy@ntlworld.com wrote on 15/5/04 11:48 pm:

Btw, I realise that this comment was tongue in cheek, I just wanted to put my 2 cents in ;-)
It reminds me of the attitude of British bike riders in the 70's, (in response to the Japanese 'invasion') just as the UK industry was in its death throes.
Some guy has the bad manners to criticise a Discovery, and he drives a Trooper... who cares? I don't... this isn't football (thank God).
I couldn't care less if somebody, nobody, anybody thinks my Defender is crap, brilliant or whatever.
Have some confidence in what you decided when you got a LR - nobody else's opinion really matters.
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Please excuse unintentional cross post from alt.fan.landrover ;-)
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Neither could I, otherwise would have sold up and bought one. The old saying " sticks and stones " springs to mind. Note the smiley on the origional reply!!
I bought mine with a reason in mind and so far it has fitted the bill perfectly, the kids love it; as far as off-road is concerned I use when I have to, suits me and thats all that counts personally.
John H
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wrote on 15/5/04 11:48 pm:

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Couldn't have put it better myself ;-)
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Iain Ogilvie wrote:

<waves from there (and from Nildram) as well>
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So what's wrong with Land Rovers? Well it's probably quality control at the factory. This means some, and I say again, some, new vehicle buyers experience niggling faults. Occasionally there are serious faults too but this is not unique to Land Rover. The Land Rover Discovery officially tows 4 tons with coupled brakes, though I've towed over eight!, is a better off roader, and a better on roader than any Ford, GM, Jeep or Japanese 4x4 in the same class. Its box chassis, unit construction and aluminium body work will ensure that it will retain its integrity long after the other pretenders have dissolved into literally a pile of junk. Average life of any Land Rover product is now over 25 years, and that's in a wet British climate, with 30, 40 and even 50 year old models in common use, not just as vintage cars for sunny Sunday afternoons, but as daily work horses, hauling trailers on farms and still beating the opposition off road.
In 2000 I was making a film in the Mole National Park region of Ghana, hundreds of square miles of rugged bush without roads. The Chief Ranger told me that of all the many vehicles that had been donated by Toyota, Nissan and Mitsubishi over the years, none had survived the work. The only vehicles they could use at the time were a huge 4x4 agricultural tractor and the original Series 3 LWB SW Land Rover he was issued with when he started the job some 20 years previously. It had out lived them all. As far as he was concerned the superior durability and functionality of the Land Rover needed no opinion from the incognisanti to prove a point.
For all of Land Rovers niggling faults their products have a unique integrity and will continue to be the bench mark that others try, with little success, to match.
--
John Lubran

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On or around Wed, 26 May 2004 21:04:53 +0100, Moving Vision

'cept that Ford own it now...
and more to the point, I suspect that the defender as currently built is going to be the last separate-chassis design. The new ones are going to be monocoques, which might well be the beginning of the end.
The great strength of the Land Rover is it's ability to stand up to abuse and still work - a lot of this is due to that bloody great chassis and live axles - getting it far enough out of line that it'll not work takes some serious effort. Build it all with independent suspension and a monocoque stressed shell and it'll be much more prone to go wrong after medium-sized impacts.
OK, I had a font end on my 110 which bent the track rod and pushed the bumper into the front wheel. But I got it rolling again with a couple of spanners (to unbolt the bumper) and a jack (under th trackrod to straighten it a bit), and had I been somewhere remote, I could have unbolted the trackrod and driven over it or something to get it straight enough to drive normally.
The same sort of impact on most things would probably have broken the front suspension and twisted the body.
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Austin Shackles wrote:

built
end.
Since the new one will be based on the Disco 3, then it will have a separate chassis.

it'll
Is there a problem with the newish Range Rover or Shogun? I've not heard of any.

the
the
Maybe. Maybe not. The main problem in the future is to do with designing for safety IMO. In many instances this is likely to compromise easy and cheap repairability. An impact such as you describe will likely blow an airbag or two. IMO this is a fair compromise.
Huw
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On or around Thu, 27 May 2004 11:58:01 +0100, "Huw"

airbags can be sorted.
A similar impact in the citroen I had previously required major surgery to the front end. It was certainly well beyond a roadside bodge to get it going again.
Obviously, a Citroen BX ain't a LR...
I'd not looked in enough detail into the disco 3 to find out that it was still separate-chassis, though I suppose I must have known once. I don't see how you can build something equivalent to the defender without.
Mind, there are far too many electronics on it to make it viable as a thing to take off into the jungle and be able to bodge. I foresee an increasing market in rebuilt-as-new pre-electronic vehicles... and quite honestly, the latest TD5 is really not suited to developing nations in e.g. Africa with no realistic infrastructure to keep 'em running.
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Austin Shackles wrote:

Obviously
a
A Defender version destined for the Jungle might not need such electrickery. Of course, if one were to buy it in the EC with the intension of using it within the EC, then there will be no choice. It will come with the latest emissionised engines and crash protection, both primary and secondary, to meet the relevant local legislation. This will require electronic control, not least for the engines because they cannot lower emissions without.
I foresee an

Africa will have to get an infrastructure to repair these things. Think of the job creation opportunities. As it stands, very few LR are sold from the UK to those countries. It would be sensible to continue building the present vehicle in a third country to meet their local and more basic needs. They certainly cannot be economically built in the UK. The UK market requires 'value added' for any local build to be viable. Our cost and political structure is so anti-industry that there is little industry left.
Huw
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With an Isuzu Trooper the story would had a happier ending.. In Africa most vehicles (except donkey carts) have shorter working lives due to the driving habits of the locals :-/ The old LR survived due to its being simple to operate and its cast-iron constitution.

It proves that old Landies are simple, they may be as tough as Troopers.
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Ray Laughton wrote:

were
functionality
a
In my experience the series 111 LR was far less reliable than the 90 and 110. They were also far more difficult to repair. For instance, the gearbox, which was prone to failure, had to be removed through the passenger compartment. Broken halfshafts were a very common occurance. They remained in production around 8 years too long, allowing the Japanese, primarily Daihatsu, to gain a foothold and establish the Japanese as credible alternatives in general.
It is easy to gloss over the problems now that most of these Series 111's that survive are toys or pets of some kind. At the time, their customers deserted them in droves due to the superior reliability and diesel performance of Daihatsu in the UK and Toyota Worldwide.
It is a huge credit to Land Rover that many Series 111 survive in service. It is a rare sight indeed to find an early 'breadvan' Daihatsu, although there are plenty of mid-Eighties square fronted ones still about. Their demise is mostly due to rust. This is also true of some LR chassis but this can be patched while the early Japanese just turned to flakes and fist sized holes all over LOL This applies just as much to early Isuzu and particularly Nissan. I remember driving a Patrol soon after they were launched in the UK, the engine was a revelation. I don't think it would have survived a decade, even with the almost compulsary third party undersealing.
Huw
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Huw wrote:

I was interested in your comments. Here in Australia Daihatsu four wheel drives have never been very common, although many owners swear by them.
The market, which was 90% Landrover in the early sixties, was taken over at least 75% by Toyota Landcruiser by the early seventies - in other words about ten years before the Series 3 stopped production, and Landrover has not seriously challenged this dominance since. (As an aside, since then the four wheel drive market has expanded enormously, with many more players, and Toyotas overall share is far less now).
From my experience there are two reasons why Toyota has managed this - firstly, superior on road performance compared to the Series 3, and secondly, a vastly superior dealer network, since they had mass market cars as well and Landrover did not.
Diesel engines did not enter in to it - at the time I am talking about you could not buy a diesel Landcruiser (but you could a Landrover - I owned one). Build quality and reliability did not enter in to - I drove new Landcruisers in the desert in 1965-66 so I know what I am talking about. Although The Landcruiser had some advantages in reliability - the axles did not break, although the semifloating rear axle bearings tended to fail, and were a major job to replace. Steering was appalling even when new, and the reliability of the electrics made Lucas look good. Dust leaks were as bad as Landrovers, and the bodies fell to bits. The seat frames broke under the weight of western drivers. The fuel tank arrangement was a death trap (fuel tank under the seat like the S3, but above the floor, so that any fuel leak pools on the floor).
Despite this Toyota managed to take most of the market from Landrover, helped by the fact that Landrovers were in short supply from the early sixties to the early seventies and a large part of Australia's quota was taken up by military orders. Toyota kept the market by rapid improvement (floating rear axle, improved steering, body improvements, quality improvements, four speed gearbox) and a good dealer network. This at a time when Landrover, under Leyland's control, was losing its mass market (Austin/Morriss) and hence dealer network, and was static in design and deteriorating in build quality. By the time the Stage 1 arrived the market had been lost, and the high price of this in both the V8 and Isuzu diesel variants served to limit the extent to which it was regained. The 110 has always been a minor component of the market here, and the 90 only arrived a year or so ago.
JD
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