'88 Grand Wagon frame rusted

Sad story... My beloved '88 Jeep Grand Wagoneer, my trusted friend for the last 18 years, apparently has a terminal case of frame rust that won't pass inspection. In the past, my mechanic has fixed this by welding in patches but he now says that the frame has to be replaced, it's so bad it cannot be repaired. I'd love to keep this vehicle. I know it's hard to answer this because you don't have all the details, but has anyone dealth with a frame restoration? How involved? Expensive?

Thansk in advance.

Reply to
Mark Corbelli
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I am soon to be in that position with my CJ7. There is minimal 'repairing' I can do to it because there is no real steel left, it has crystallized.

I know my body will come off in modules and in one piece because it is fiberglass that I installed 7 years ago.

The big issue is how much steel is left in your body, particularly the area around the mounts. If they are solid, then your Jeep might be worth a new frame. In my case only one bolt came out of the body tub without cutting or snapping....

Jeeps are nice because they do come apart in pieces pretty easy. The wiring harness comes apart in modules at the fuse panel when you unbolt the center bolt.

When the body is lifted off the frame, it is then relatively easy to plumb up the new frame for gas and brake and vent lines before the body goes back on.

I guess the trick is to find a new frame that the maker didn't think was gold plated.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06
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Reply to
Mike Romain

For a Wagoneer? Good luck. I've seen some relatively intact vehicles in New Mexico and Colorado used car lots, but they think the whole vehicle is gold plated. There's an older one north of Durango on 550 with a for sale for $500 sign on the windshield...

Earle

Reply to
Earle Horton

There is a classic rust weakness area in the frame used under that vehicle. Usually it is in front of rear axle were it rusts to the point it breaks. Jeep used a thinner alloyed frame that was strong but prone to rust. J10', fullsized Cherokees and Wagoneers were prone to this problem. J20's were not because they had a much heavier frame. It do not think it would be too hard to find a frame because the same basic one was used for over 20 years. It can be done but I would suggest that if you replace it sandblast and paint frame you plane to use before installing it. If you want to get extreme, you could look into using a J20 frame and shortening it to proper length. This is extra work and cost but if cleaned and paint it would easilly out last the rest of vehicle. Personally if it is in good shape I think it is worth it because it is a real classic and was ahead of its time. Sturdy vehicle too.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

Saw this article recently, local paper

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Reply to
Howard

There is another guy that has built a big bussiness out of buying, refurbing and reselling them too for top dollar and has no shortage of buyers. As I recall he is somewhere around texas.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

I have a bit more information...my mechanic says the main reason it won't pass now is that the frame is rusted where the support for the gas tank is and that has to be fixed to so the gas tank is supported properly. He has enough good metal that he can tack weld pieces of good metal in places and pass it for another year, but after that he doubts he can fix it any further. He says if I can find a good frame somewhere, it's about a 30 hour job over three days @ $70 per hour to completely remove every piece off the old frame and rebuild it on the new frame. I have decided to park the car for now until I can research and find out if I can reasonably expect to find a decent frame somewhere. The car has about 90,000 miles on the engine,

180,000 on the car. I've had it since it was 2 years old. Otherwise it runs well, and most everything still works.
Reply to
Mark Corbelli

Mark,

Well, suffice it to say you're looking at a fair bill to swap out that frame -- I think the hour figure is high since most likely you will be purchasing a wrecked/rolling chassis -- so you don't swap every assembly in the process, you roll the old one out and roll the new one under. So you're looking at labor, a rolling chassis, one or two tows, and every nut, bolt, and replaceable assembly that gets touched in the proce$$....a number that eclipses the value of a good example from a rust-free area.

For the record (as someone who worked/killed time in one), I think you really need to take it by a local welding shop before you park it for good -- if I'm correct in interpreting your mechanic's issues, there is no structural issue with the frame rails (Otherwise you'd have suspension problems or bumpers that fall off), and the crossmembers are what have rotted off. If that's correct, there's no reason why a local welding shop can't put together something that will outlast the rest of the vehicle....and for a fraction of the price. And while your'e in there, it's a great opportunity to do some rust prevention in the vicinity.

I'll stop here...

Jon

Reply to
Jon

I will also agree about going to a professional welding shop or even a trade school for frame repairs. The pros are usually better and cheaper than a mechanic for welding repairs. A few well placed patches have kept my frame going for an amazingly long time. Plus I don't really bash it off road anymore due to injuries from a car accident.

Economically I don't see how it would pay to have a mechanic do all the labor on the swap. When I rebuilt my frame last century, I had a rolling chassis sitting there so I could take my time and put all the new lines and things on it. It is really not that hard to do when you have the old parts as a guide and no body in the way.

I also stripped the old frame down and put a coat of that 'rust converter' stuff on it with a rubberized overcoat to slow down future rust. I will have to say it worked seeing as I am still driving her 7-8 years later.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06
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Reply to
Mike Romain

I agree. The donor frame is going to have bolts rusted, holes not drilled, welded brackets missing and fittings in a different location from what you need. That kind of stuff really eats up time. It sounds as if the mechanic this guy has is over his head, really.

Earle

Reply to
Earle Horton

The problem is the basic frame design. Jeep used a thin gauge high strength alloy frame and rust can take its toll on it and if you try to repair it you will speen a lot of time trying to piece it togehter and fine a strong place to weld too then if you do not do this right, the new material will create stress in a new area on metal that may be weaked by rust too. You could have some custom hat sections made up to restore weak areas but that would not be cheap either. Another thought is if you can find another frame you could use part of it to splits repair the existing frame and not have to replace complete frame. If it was mine and the rest of the frame was good I would try this method first I think. If I replaced the complete frame I would use a shortend P/U frame as I stated earlier because it is a lot stronger and would never rust out during the rest of its service life. If you just have a local welder weld in some odd pieces this will not likely create a good fix. Whithout seeing the actual damage it is hard to say for sure the best possible repair solution.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

I went down to the garage and picked the Jeep up today. I had a broken driver's side door pull and had them price that, but when I heard about the frame problem I stopped all work. When I went to get in the Jeep, the latch assembly was laying in pieces on the floorboard, so I had to wait for a mechanic to put it back together in the pariking lot. The good news was first, I watched him put it back together, so if I can get the part ( a driver's door latch assembly), I'm sure I can do that myself. Second, we had a nice chat about the car. He didn't do the inspection, but we got under it and he pointed some stuff out. For the most part the frame, (and the Jeep in in general) is virtually rust free. There is a middle section that looks like there is a sheet metal pan attached to it, I think this holds up the gas tank or shields it, and that section is rusted and the pan is in pieces (I suspect because mechanics have been poking around the rust so much as I never noticed it before). Anyway, he said fabricators and race shops make frames all the time. He seems to think that it needs to go on a lift, a brace needs to be tacked on both sides to hold it while the bad section is cut out, then a new fabricated piece is welded in. He says the bad section doesn't have places where other parts are bolted on etc..fairly simple. He seems to think it'll cost between $800 and $1000 and the owner of the shop a) doesn't have the equipment/experience and 2) the shop wouldn't make any real money on the repair like it makes on other less complicated routine stuff that they can turn over quickly. Anyway, it's sitting in front of my house and I think I'll get some more opinions before I try to locate a replacement frame.

Reply to
Mark Corbelli

Snoman, do you actually 'read' what you are replying to?

You seem to cut out thread parts, then reply with complete nonsense to the parts you have cut out and pasted. This makes you look like an insane idiot sometimes. Sorry about the language, but man oh man....

Do you do this on purpose or do you have no clue how to trim a thread? From what I have read on several groups, you do this consistently.

Maybe you should leave the thread snipping alone and just reply to the whole thing????

Either that or learn how to snip.

On this post in particular you tossed the statement you 'appear to be' replying to and replied with total nonsense in the context of your snip. We are talking about replacing a rolling chassis in your snip, yet you are babbling on about rust???

Unless you enjoy the abuse, because you sure set yourself up for it.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06
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Reply to
Mike Romain

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A replacement frame for a CJ is $1,799.99. This is made by a company that has done a few of them, so some economy of scale kicks in. A Wagoneer frame would have to be a one-off, so maybe double the price, plus shipping, plus installation. It is true that "fabricators and race shops make frames all the time" but it is just not a reasonable alternative for a 1988 Wagoneer, unless you are totally in love with the vehicle and have lots of money besides. I really believe that the folks you are dealing with are way over their heads on this one. I suggest taking the vehicle to a "restoration shop", labelled as such in the Yellow Pages, for a dose of reality.

Another thing your mechanic didn't mention is that people who repair frames have to make money too, and someone has to pay for all that fancy equipment they have and absorb the cost of the steel inventory they need, to be able to take jobs like this. That one foot piece of frame that needs to be welded in, has been sitting on someone's rack for twenty years, and you are expected to pay back rent.

Sometimes you just have to let them go.

Saludos,

Earle

Reply to
Earle Horton

Hmmm.....

You know, I would highly recommend you find a local Jeep or 4x4 club and let someone there have a look. Then see who they recommend for a fix. What part of the world are you in?

You really could just be describing the gas tank skid plate now as being rotted out. These are a 'wear' part that can be bought aftermarket and installed. They hold snow and water and rot out all the time.

If you have a digital camera and want to go under to snap some shots you can post the photos over on alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4 or even email them to me and I can post them on my photo album site. My email is legit in this header.

Mine on my CJ7 let go and I lost my gas tank on the trail, 250 miles from home, literally.... I ended up tossing the tank in the back and running a line into the hole I tore in it to get home, but meanwhile I can get another skid plate easily. I have one half made in the back for it, I will finish some day so my gas tank is currently just strapped in place with no skid plate on it. The rotted skid won't pass inspection, but the bare tank will... I want to wait for the new frame.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06
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Mark Corbelli wrote:

Reply to
Mike Romain

Mike, You're wasting your time with Snojob.

Spdloader

Reply to
Spdloader

I know what you purpose is, to be a troll with a ego problem. You try to discredit anyone that you feel threatened by. Said part is knowledge is not a threat except to maybe someone to inmature as yourself to realize. You may think otherwise but you are still a green horn in a 4x4 world though you are a legend in your own mind.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

Why a new frame in aftermarket for a steep price? Get a frame from down south or out west that has never seen salt and even if you spend several hundred buck getting it shipped in you will still be far ahead of the game money wise. Also like a said earlier, that frame design was used for over 20 years (actually close to 30 years) unlike frames in other detriot 4x4's so that makes it a a bit eaiser to find one in that you are not confinned to just a few model years. BTW, it I really want a custom frame I would still find a clean old frame and then have it fully boxed and have a stronger frame that cost less than a aftermarket replacement.

----------------- TheSnoMan.com

Reply to
SnoMan

So you have chosen to flame rather than address the question.

That does make you out to be the total insane idiot that posted he stops 'always' in the middle of the highway in a snowstorm to shift gears then???

I ask again, do you read what you reply to before posting?

Like 'engage brain before hitting that 'send' button'.

I am not trolling you, just replying to your continued insanity because you know 'just' enough to be dangerous when folks believe your BS.

If someone actually believed it when you implied you haven't been killed in 35 years when always stopping on the highway in a snowstorm to change gears, they will die.

I will continue to reply to any thread you reply to letting folks know just how 'off' you really are.

Folks on this group have Bill and his bad meds days, we don't need another insane poster here.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06
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Reply to
Mike Romain

No disrespect but this Jeep spent it's whole life in central Virginia. No road salt, no salt air. I routinely washed the undercarriage. It went on the beach 3-5 times a year for a total of maybe 15 days spent near the ocean per year...If ever there was a frame that was in a geographical region that tradition has it that their should be minimum rust, this is it. I've decided against finding another Jeep and using it's frame as I think you'll have the same problems, or at least the potential for them.

Reply to
Mark Corbelli

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