In Defense of Enzo, who loved Jeeps

Yes, it's like Ferrari, BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, etc... Look back into

1970's at their products. They're far inferior in most ways to American counterparts of the period. Ferrari's were beautiful cars with kit car build quality. Mechanically they were unreliable. They weren't all that impressive performance-wise either. Sure, the snobby will call their performance "balanced", but a common Chevelle SS would outgun most Ferraris in an acceleration contest. The one on Magnum PI had a 0-60 time of something like 9 seconds! The original VW GTi was capable of that. Even the Corvette during those poor performance years could go faster. Porsche never even made a fast car until the 1978 911 Turbo was released, and its performance would have been laughed at between 1967 to 1971. Have you even seen a 70's era Bimmer or Benz? Most were nothing to look at... There was nothing special about Mercedes vehicles back then, but somehow in the 1980's we began a love affair with them and that funded them to improve their product to be where they are now. Same goes for Honda, Toyota, and Datsun (Nissan). Our need for fuel efficiency provided them with the much needed funds, combined with their ambitition, led to the admittedly good products they have now. But back then, there was nothing special about them. I remember reading an article about a Toyota 2000GT, where they were so unreliable that the engine needed rebuilt every 60K or something like that. They got the reliability later, after we funded it.

Ferraris of the 50's, 60's and 70's were the performance cars of their generation overall, hands down.

They were not dragsters, certainly. But who cares, except for a few stoplight losers? The Ferrari V12 engines were capable of putting out more power than all but the rumpiest musclecar engines-but they were turbine smooth and would make power from 1500 rpm all the way to redline. They would run a very long time and were highly rebuildable with cylinder liners and a hell-for-stout lower end. And the drivelines were rugged, the brakes first rate...sure, there were Cinzano wrappers for fuses in the early ones, but mechanically they were first class. Ferrari's real bread and butter was, and is, foundry work...and it shows.

Corvette? No one takes Corvette fully seriously. Sure, the current one is a credible car on the Autobahn. But for decades they weren't, and besides, a guy who wants that kind of car doesn't want one made in that quantity, bought by secretaries. He wants beautiful mechanicals, not shared with pickup trucks, he wants race car tech (NASCAR isn't a race car-it's taxicab racing) and aircraft smells.

Ford GT? It's a Corvette shaped like a GT40 road racer. Pure cheese for the gullible. The money is in the right ballpark, but the tech is Focus level.

The sad thing is Detroit COULD do the job. They could build a real contender, in fact Ford could have made the GT a serious car for another ten grand per unit. But since Americans are (mostly) too ignorant to understand the difference, the status quo will continue.

I guess the poster never heard of a Porsche 550RS, a 908 or a 917, or a Mercedes W196, 300SL, or 300SLR. Like I said, we're ignorant and we like it that way.

Reply to
calcerise
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Reply to
L.W.( ßill ) Hughes III

Ferraris of the 50's, 60's and 70's were the performance cars of their

I'll point out again, the 308 GTB had a 0 to 60 time of 9 seconds. That is not only slow, but god awfully slow. Ferraris may have made some power at

1500 rpm, but it wasn't earth shattering in any way. You have to rev a Ferrari to get any power out of it. How good is that unless you have a lot of road to open it up? Again, a run of the mill Chevelle SS 396 would give just about any Ferrari a run for its money from any stoplight, was actually affordable, and could haul 4 or more people _comfortably_ home from a night at the drags. Only the most expensive, and rarest Ferraris were fast back then, and unless your last name was Getty or Rockefeller, you couldn't afford it. Ferraris of that era had manual steering, poor reliability, and kit car build quality. Some models were very handsome, but you definitely didn't want to try and make one a daily driver. Ferraris simply were, and for the most part still are, shall we say...delicate.

I'm not even going to get into the ignorant crap about the Ford GT and Corvette. Again, anyone can make a car that's extremely capable for 200 grand. The trick is to do it at an affordable price. Automobile recently voted the C2 Corvette as the coolest car ever built. Motor Trend recently claimed the small block Chevrolet engine as the greatest engine ever built. Get over it...

I have news for you...DOHC technology dates back to 1913 in the Peugeot. It's not as modern of a design as you think.

I guess the poster never heard of a Porsche 550RS, a 908 or a 917, or

The 550 was not only a glorified Volkswagen, but an unsafe one at that... I thought you said you wanted engines that were special? The 908 and 917 were race cars, the Merc W196 and 300SLR were too. The 300SL had a whopping 215 HP. In 1954, when America wasn't building cars with any kind of power yet, that was a lot.

Let's talk about real performace: 1967 Corvette L-89, 1967-69 Corvette L-88,

1969 Corvette ZL-1,
Reply to
Ruel Smith

BTW, I don't believe Enzo actually said he loved Jeeps, but that the Jeep was America's only true sports car because it was the only vehicle we produced that was truly purpose built.

Reply to
Ruel Smith

Reply to
L.W.( ßill ) Hughes III

Close, but wrong link Bill. :) The Boss 429 was a pushrod motor. They did make a 427 cubic inch SOHC motor though

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Reply to
bllsht

Correct. And Chrysler was working on a DOHC 426 Hemi to one up the SOHC 427 FE of Ford. bit NASCAR banned special engines and the project was cancelled. Musclecar Review showed pics of what was left of the prototype a few years back.

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Skip down to A925.

The Boss 429 was a "semi-hemi", but a pushrod engine.

Reply to
Ruel Smith

Reply to
L.W.( ßill ) Hughes III

Ruel Smith proclaimed:

You can "point it out" until your face turns blue, but according to Road & Track you have been eating too much cascara without taking the appropriate break. Range is from 6.8 to 7.9, with the 7.9 being for the early smogged models.

Reply to
Lon

I don't think Enzo loved cars per se, he loved engineering, he loved good workmanship-and he thought of himself as a engine and chassis builder, preferring to leave coachwork elsewhere-and most of all he loved winning. Ford beat him, once or twice, Colin Chapman ditto, everyone else ditto. Enzo went the distance. Even Shel never really beat him-no one did. He's the Sinatra of fast cars. He really did do it his way.

The 308 was, I think, really a Dino to Enzo-a Ferrari was a twelve cylinder automobile. The 365BB is to me the ultimate Ferrari, he couldn't sell it in America, but he'd made his point. The 308 is still a fun car to drive-yes, I have-but it has a 90 degree flat crank V8.

I'd like to see a Chevelle (not gutted out and NASCARized) beat any Ferrari ever built around the N=FCrburgring. THAT, and not High School Drag Night, is what performance is about.

Reply to
calcerise

Reply to
L.W.( ßill ) Hughes III

Yeah, they beat Ferrari. Sure did.

ONCE.

Reply to
calcerise

The Ford GT IS two hundred grand-but it's maybe fifty grand worth of car, tops.

It's an overgrown Toyota MR2.

Reply to
calcerise

Well it depends on how much you want to pay. I can't see that getting anywhere close to the Ferrari Enzo. Probably similar to the 575.

Dave Milne, Scotland '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

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Reply to
Dave Milne

Not in America. Performance is what your car can do from a stoplight. We don't have an Autobahn here. How many people in this country even watch IMSA or Formula 1 racing?

We're talking about apples and oranges, of course - a Chevelle is not aerodynamic enough or have the proper gearing to do high speed runs, and it definitely doesn't have the handling and breaking. And, the Ferraris simply didn't make enough torque and low-end horsepower to accelerate from a dead stop very well. My original point was that Ferrari simply wasn't all that powerful of a vehicle back then, as many American cars made more power, and they had horrible quality and reliability. Sure, they used expensive parts, but their build quality was kit car level. The point I originally made was that because we, Americans, fell in love with them for some reason, our money has helped them pump into R&D and vastly improve them. I made the point across the board to all those European and Japanese cars. OUR money, has made those companies what they are.

Reply to
Ruel Smith

Ferrari got scared and didn't race again for a few years in an effort to save themselves of the embarrassment.

Reply to
Ruel Smith

And the new GT is a joke-no fuel cell, no AN fittings, cast bolt-on

Gee...Every car magazine so far has picked the GT over the 360. I haven't seen a comparison of the F430 against the GT.

Reply to
Ruel Smith

No, but Ferrari did. I think it was 1964 or 1965 when Enzo got the last race of the year, Monza, cancelled to prevent Ford from beating Ferrari for the season. Now that's being a cry baby.

Reply to
Ruel Smith

Buahahahahaha... Oh my god the laughter... They got orders for them for the next couple of years and people are paying as much as $100 grand over sticker for them, as reported on Motorweek. I think the market decides the value of a good, at least in capitalism.

Reply to
Ruel Smith

Ruel Smith proclaimed:

....and every one of them is being recalled for such a trivial thing as the cast suspension control arms cracking.

Reply to
Lon

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