Jeep Cherokee ABS problem Part 2 - The Sequel

Good morning everyone

Thank you for your help in sorting out (well, starting to sort out - see below) my Jeep Cherokee ABS problem. I promised I would let you know how things turned out, but they haven't turned out yet, they are still rumbling along, so this is an interim report and a request for some more help.

The details of the original problem can be found by searching this NG for "Jeep Cherokee ABS problem" in January and February this year, but for your convenience here is a summary of what happened.

On 9 September last year I bought a 2001 Jeep Cherokee from Humber Motors Ford of Stephenville, Newfoundland (yes, I am getting so mad about this that I am naming names and pointing fingers this time). I paid $19,540.50 for it and they told me (among other things) that it had ABS fitted. In January this year I noticed while driving on snow covered roads that the ABS didn't seem to be working. On 13 January I took it back to the dealership and they assured me that the ABS was working perfectly. I still didn't think it was working so after a great deal of help from this NG and some time with my head under the hood I realised that there was no ABS fitted. On 3 February I took it back to the dealership again and this time they admitted that it didn't have ABS and said they would see what they could do about it. That's where we left it at the close of the last discussion thread. Now read on...

After many weeks of delay and numerous exchanges of e-mails, letters and telephone calls we have reached an impasse. We have agreed that the vehicle does not have ABS fitted, that it was mis-sold to me and that I am entitled to return it and get a refund. What we are still arguing about is the amount of the refund and specifically the amount to be deducted for usage of the vehicle.

I bought the vehicle on 9 September 2005 for $19,540.50. I returned it to the dealership on 17 March 2006 for an interim payment of $14,020.50 pending agreement on the final amount. The dealership sold it on again a couple of weeks later so the vehicle itself is now out of the picture.

My position on the refund is that I had it for 6 months and I should be entitled to a refund of the purchase price less six months' depreciation. If we assume depreciation of 30% per annum, the buy-back price should be 85% of the purchase price or $16,609.42.

Humber Motors has adopted an alternative method of calculation. They say that they want to calculate it on the basis of a usage charge of $800 per month, or $4,800 over six months, plus tax. This is what I would have paid them if I had leased the vehicle from them. They work this out at $5,520, which when deducted from the purchase price leaves a refund of $14,020.50 (the amount of the interim payment).

As you can see, there is a difference of $2,588.92 between the two methods of calculation. The dealership has since increased its offer by a further $1,619.50 but I have not accepted it because it still leaves me about $1,000 short of what I think I should get, and because as a matter of principle I don't think they should get away with this. They mis-sold me a vehicle, they performed a shoddy inspection in which they failed to identify a completely missing vehicle component, they dragged their feet for weeks before even beginning to negotiate about a refund, and now they want to rip me off $1,000 as well. This was a sale, not a lease, and any refund should be calculated on the same basis. Plus, I have been quite reasonable about the amount I am claiming from them. I have not, for example, claimed for a complete new set of winter tires which I put on the vehicle and left on it when I returned it to them (because they were no further use to me).

So I'd be interested to hear what people here think would be a fair refund, or better still, does anyone know of any reported similar cases or precedents which would indicate how the refund should be calculated?

Peter

Reply to
Peter
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Hey there, welcome back!

At the very least I would think you are due the difference in the retail amounts of vehicle's value. ie. $19.5k you paid minus the retail value at the time it was turned in (selling price to the new family)

Your offer of 30% depreciation is not reasonable to you as the vehicle value would not have dropped that much.

Their offer is outrageous..... no one would lease a 4 year old Jeep for $800 a month.

That being said...... what is your bride driving now?

Reply to
billy ray

Reply to
philthy

...the bride is now driving a 2006 Honda Odyssey minivan (very suitable for 3 small kids), thank you for asking, and I am now driving the bride's old vehicle which is a 2002 Cadillac Escalade (very comfortable but she found the high lift too much when hauling the kids into their car seats).. So as I am no longer a Jeep owner I guess I'm kind of disqualified from posting in this NG...!

Reply to
Peter

That's probably more befitting your position anyway even though it is a GM product.

Take good care of the sprouts!

Reply to
billy ray

You're probably entitled to more but it seems to me that since you accepted the initial cash buyback, you made it harder on yourself to collect what you think you were entitled to. Is the $1,000 worth your time and aggravation? If so, then take them on, remembering that if you decide to sue, you'll have to pay a lawyer, so deduct that cost from what you collect. There are also governmental agencies that would help, Attorneys General and such, but you are talking about years to get relief.

My advice, take their offer, swallow your pride, chalk it up to experience, and tell everyone you know about what happened. These are used car salesmen, after all, and used car salesmen often deserve their bottom-feeder reputations.

Next time you buy a used car, do your homework.

PS We had a Honda Odessey as well, it was a lease, and Honda had to buy it back as a lemon...not really on topic, but your situation put me in the mind to remember it...

Reply to
Matt Macchiarolo

I'm having a hard time as well feeling any real concern. Getting rid of a perfectly good vehicle just due to a mistaken impression it had ABS sounds a bit harsh. Driving it around for depreciation and then selling it back again sounds like more wishful thinking.

The salesmen probably had no clue whatever if the vehicle had ABS, they rarely know if there are wheels under a vehicle. If that was a big deal for the sale and the buyer didn't ask for an explicit check or have a mechanic check [as in a mechanic familiar with the brand and with ABS] then sounds like someone pretty much failed 100% to do their own homework and has a bit of an issue with the concept of responsibility.

Just possibly, if the sales order for the vehicle stated it had ABS, that could be used to void the sale, but very likely not after having driven it so long. Whether an explicit statement that the vehicle had ABS would override the common "AS IS" provision on used vehicles is something only a lawyer familiar with that state law could answer.

And it is trivial to find out if any vehicle for which a VIN is available had ABS. As would looking in the owners manual for startup sequences.

Wonder if part of that dealer's buyout included a recommendation to a competitor? Some folks you just don't need as customers.

Matt Macchiarolo proclaimed:

Reply to
Lon

Well hang on, this is a bit harsh isn't it? Could I point out FYI three points:

  1. One reason to buy a vehicle from a dealer as opposed to a private sale is because it comes with warranties etc. and you can take it back if it goes wrong or if it's not up to spec. If I was buying from a private buyer I would have had an independent inspection done, checked the vehicle's history etc. etc but you don't expect to have to do these things when buying from a dealership - especially a major dealership with four branches and a major manufacturer's franchise as is the case here.

  1. Having ABS is maybe not so important if you live in Texas or Florida, but if you've never visited Newfoundland in the winter, I can assure you that it's a tad more important here.

  2. Having found out that the vehicle wasn't to spec and wasn't suitable, I had to get it off my hands pronto. Otherwise I would be stuck with paying insurance on a vehicle I wasn't using, and having a rapidly deteriorating and depreciating asset. Hence the buy back and the interim payment.
Reply to
Peter

Which obviously is moot here. Yes, you do have to do these things when buying from a dealership, if it's a used car.

Your impatience cost you a lot. You could have cancelled the insurance or at least told your insurance company what was going on and that you werent' driving it. The depreciation was moot, you got paid a fraction of what you were entitled to.

Bottom line, you pretty much made the bed you have to sleep in.

Reply to
Matt Macchiarolo

If you have explained your position to the dealership, or attempted to, and they won't budge (or you won't), then your next recourse is the court system. You are alleging fraud here, and a judge should take that into account when calculating any amount you are due. Another method of calculation I could suggest is the amount for which the dealer sold the vehicle, minus the payment of $14,020.50. This, your depreciation calculation, and the dealer's "lease" calculation, are all basically something pulled out of a hat. A judge can tell you what is fair, or what according to Anglo-Saxon common law and tradition is thought to be fair. (I assume that Newfoundland has some variant of Anglo-Saxon common law.)

In Colorado we have something called "Small Claims Court", where a county court judge hears cases like this and gives his opinion. There is a minimal filing fee, no lawyers, and the right to appeal to district court if one doesn't like the judgment. Parties state their case, show their evidence, and the judge makes his finding, based on his experience of dispute resolution and his judgment of the facts. I don't know the court rules in Newfoundland (although I do know one or two "Newfie" jokes) and my one reservation is that the amount claimed may exceed county court jurisdiction. See your local county court clerk's office for details. They can't give you legal advice, but they should have brochures, forms and all the information you would need to file, if that is what you want to do. It wouldn't hurt to consult a lawyer, but get one with expertise in this area.

You are entitled to some consideration for having been deceived. "On 13 January I took it back to the dealership and they assured me that the ABS was working perfectly.", even though the vehicle didn't have ABS! This is shocking behavior from a dealer to a naïve customer. Their lying to you increased the amount of inconvenience you experienced, and may increase the amount of damages you can claim. This and other instances of stalling and foot-dragging may invalidate the "lease payments" they say they are owed, or your depreciation calculation. A judge may decide, that you actually tried to return the vehicle on numerous occasions, and were tricked into not doing so. You may be underestimating the amount of consideration you are due in this regard.

I see nothing wrong with your use of the business' name in this context. Publicly registered and licensed businesses receive a benefit from whatever good reputation they have with the public. They put this at risk with every sale and interaction, especially when they behave badly. You didn't sign any confidentiality agreement when you bought the car, now did you?

Reply to
Earle Horton

In article , Peter wrote: #My position on the refund is that I had it for 6 months and I should be #entitled to a refund of the purchase price less six months' #depreciation. If we assume depreciation of 30% per annum, the buy-back #price should be 85% of the purchase price or $16,609.42. # #Humber Motors has adopted an alternative method of calculation. They #say that they want to calculate it on the basis of a usage charge of #$800 per month, or $4,800 over six months, plus tax. This is what I #would have paid them if I had leased the vehicle from them. They work #this out at $5,520, which when deducted from the purchase price leaves #a refund of $14,020.50 (the amount of the interim payment).

Take a Kelly Blue Book and figure out the value for it when you bought it and when you sold it. The difference (either the actual sum or the percentage) is what they should subtract.

/herb

Reply to
Herb Leong

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