Need help from a Buick Oddfire V6 Guru

I'm trying to fire up a '61 CJ5 that I am almost finished restoring. Engine is from a '64 Buick Special, suspect it is the 198ci because it has a Rochester Monojet rather than the 2bbl found on the 225. No matter, same block, etc. I have compression, I have manifold vacuum, rebuilt the carb, have fuel, rebuilt the distributor (vacuum advance had a hole in it) and have spark, but it won't start. The previous owner had installed a new timing chain after he parked it, but never drove it, and I assume he did that correctly or it would have destroyed a valve in cranking it over. But he apparently had to pull the distributor. It is driven by a hypoid gear that causes the rotor to twist as you remove it, so I suspect he may not have inserted it correctly. At TDC, the rotor was pointing midway between #1 and #6.

There is a small notch on the side of the distributor housing that marks the #1 position. What I need is for someone with an Oddfire engine to set it to TDC and tell me where the centerline of the contact strip on top of the rotor is pointing. (The contact is wide at the end, but please ignore that.) Right now, mine points directly at the notch, but I am not sure if this is correct. I can't find any manuals that cover an engine this old. I need to set the ignition timing before I can finish troubleshooting it.

Thanks.

Reply to
Bill Lahr
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My book shows it to be at the 5:00 position looking at it from the front of the engine with the firing order 165432 clockwise.

Yours sounds like it is off a gear tooth maybe on the rotor or the distributor needs to be turned to clock it. It should be at 1 or just slightly after towards the 6. My book also shows two different advances. It says 0 for the prestolite distributor and 5 deg for the delco remy.

Also make sure it is on the compression stroke TDC, not the exhaust stroke's TDC. You can stick you finger in the plug hole and feel the compression as it comes up.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >
Reply to
Mike Romain

Milke,

Thanks. It is difficult to tell from a book. I have a Haynes manual, but the drawing isn't that clear and it doesn't have any details on the early GM engines, only the similar Dauntless V6. The rotor is wide on the Oddfire distributor and mine will either center on #1 at TDC on the compression stroke or point between #1 and #6. If you have one of these engines (Delco distributor), could you pop the cap and look at where the centerline of the rotor points at TDC? There is a small notch on the distributor that represents the #1 position. One would assume it would point to that mark, not past it.

Bill

Mike Roma> My book shows it to be at the 5:00 position looking at it from the front

Reply to
Bill Lahr

Sorry I don't own one.

It is normal for the rotor to be slightly past #1 if the timing is set at 5 or more degrees BTDC. What that means is the rotor will hit the contact before the engine hits TDC so when the engine finally is at Top, the rotor has past the contact post for #1 wire.

The fire happens when the metal part of the rotor first hits the post on the cap or just when the points first crack open.

You turn the distributor's case to fine tune it in. This can be done with a timing light even if it isn't running. The starter cranking will be enough to make the light flash. A test light on the points for a static test will tell too. Set the distributor nut down at first flicker.

You should have a notch on the flywheel that indicates TDC also.

I don't understand how your rotor can point to both places. Either it is right on the center of the post for the wire if you have the prestolite distributor or it is inbetween 1 and 6 for the delco remy.

You turn the distributor's case to fine tune it in. This can be done with a timing light even if it isn't running. The starter cranking will be enough to make the light flash. A test light on the points will tell too. Set the distributor at first flicker.

The one that catches most folks is the two different top dead centers the #1 piston has with one 360 rotor rotation.

Mike

Bill Lahr wrote:

Reply to
Mike Romain

I thought about what you were saying and I have always figured the centerline of the rotor would be the point that is the optimum spark point so have used the rotor's centerline for setting them up by eye.

If it is past, then your timing is 'advanced' before top dead center.

What really counts is when the spark is generated. I outlined that test in the other post.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06
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Reply to
Mike Romain

Reply to
L.W.(Bill) Hughes III
  1. Rotate engine in normal direction of rotation until the timing mark on the crankshaft balancer lines up with "0" (TDC) on timing tab and engine is in #1 firing position.
  2. Look closely at the cam in the distributor. Three lobes have sharper profile than the other three (sharp, round, sharp, round, ... 1 (132 dgrees) 6 (108 degrees) 5 (132 degrees) ... and so on ... )
  3. Install the distributor so that when the rotor is aligned with with the #1 spark plug tower, a rounded lobe is aligned with the rubbing block of the breaker points.
  4. Secure distributor with clamp and check engine timing with timing light. For what it's worth I set my timing at 8 degrees and use Shell Silver 89 octane.
Reply to
bowgus

Reply to
L.W.(Bill) Hughes III

Perhaps he does not understand how to correct the problem if he is one tooth when the distributor was installed.

If it is one tooth off it may still be timeable if the distributor can be rotated sufficiently.

Check the timing, with a light, while cranking. If you are one tooth off you may have to search to find the mark. I used to rub chalk or paint the marks with nail polish for visibility.

I do not know if this V-6 is an interference engine. Do you know Bill?

Note where the rotor points while installed. Carefully and slowly remove distributor Note where rotor now points. Rotate rotor one tooth in the appropriate direction Slowly re-insert distributor Rotor should point directly to cylinder #1 terminal Check timing.

Do you have a timing light? If not you can do it manually by setting the timing mark at the appropriate advance and rotating the distributor until you get a spark.

Reply to
billy ray

Reply to
L.W.(Bill) Hughes III

Thanks to all of you. I can rotate the distributor body enough to line it up at #1 or between #1 and #6, depending upon how I seat the shaft. There are some hoses and the vacuum advance that limit the adjustment. I am assuming the guy who gave me the Jeep installed the new timing chain properly, since he worked for Hillcrest Cadillac in LA for a time, restoring the antique cars for the Willet H. Brown collection. Some were valued at more than $600,000. (Typical mechanic, fix other peoples' stuff and let yours go to pot.)

Yes, I have a timing light, but I wanted to set it with a meter to roughly 5BTDC before I attempt to start it. The oddfire distributor is strange.

As to the cam lobes, this is of no importance because the rotor cap is keyed and can only fit one way. I set the point gap at .022, but there is a door on the side of the distributor cap that will let me adjust the dwell once it is running. I have an aftermarket capacitor discharge ignition system for it so the dwell isn't that important.

The jeep sat outside for over ten years with water > The relationship between the GM cap lock screws may help:

Reply to
Bill Lahr

Reply to
L.W.(Bill) Hughes III

Bill,

Did you one better. I pulled the plugs and left valve cover, turned the engine by hand and watched the valves so I could be 100% sure the TDC mark is at the #1 compression stroke. My book doesn't specifically list the Oddfire engines, says .022 for "all Delco distributors." Of course, they could be referring to the Jeep four-bangers, as it isn't really clear on that point. As I said, the dwell is not important anyway, as I am using an aftermarket CD ignition system. I bought three of them about

40 years ago. Plugs last 50K miles and points last forever. I'll go ahead and regap the points to .016 anyway.

I spun up the oil pump, no flow, so next up is to drop the pan and clean the pickup screen. Those engines have the pickup in the rear with an oil passage going through the block to the oil pump in front. Once I get it flowing with fresh oil, I want to flush the block. Any suggestions on what to use? The prior owner plugged off the PCV valve (he ran it on natural gas directly into the manifold for a couple years in the 70's) and there is some sludge in it that I want to get rid of. I used "Rislone" years ago, not sure it is still around.

Bill snipped-for-privacy@pcmagic.net

L.W.(Bill) Hughes III wrote:

Reply to
Bill Lahr

Just so you know, I can set the rotor in any physical position and clock the wires to match so it runs, except on that odd fire engine. I believe it has to be correct with the rotor pointing to 5:00 looking from the front. Hence the round cam lobe setup, vs the sharp one.

As far as the fine tuning goes, you can set the rotor so it is in the center of the free movement area for the distributor body while pointing at #1 wire post in the cap. You then set the crank pulley at the notch for TDC or at the 5 deg mark you want. Then with the key off, you put your meter set on Ohms across the points and turn the distributor body until the meter stop beeping or first flickers away from 0. Or you could have the meter on Volts with the key on and turn the distributor body until the meter flicks to 12 volts. When this happens, bolt the distributor down.

This will have your timing statically set at 5 deg. BTDC.

Then you can open up the cap and see where the sucker is 'supposed' to be....

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >
Reply to
Mike Romain

That pump needs to be primed. Packing it with Vaseline works for this.

I have managed to prime the pumps in the oil pan by back feeding oil from the filter base, but that won't work on the V6 pump.

My book also calls for a point gap of .022.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >
Reply to
Mike Romain

Lazarus Lives! Many thanks to all of you here. I spun the oil pump with my drill, finally got it primed. Seated the distributor, aligned so the rotor was between 0 and 5BTDC in a static check (regapped the points to .016 as you suggested.) Cranked it over and it coughed and started! Not bad after sitting for almost 11 years. Alternator works, 30A charge, oil pressure is around 30 psi on fast idle, water temp slowly got to 140. Popped it in reverse, then first, clutch and trans work fine. Started to rain, so I'll have to shut it off for a few days. Picked up some Rislone today, so will change the oil and filter, run that with the next oil change, and hopefully get rid of most of the sludge. I have the PCV valve hooked up now, so that should eliminate sludge in the future.

Thanks again for all the tips.

Bill Lahr

L.W.(Bill) Hughes III wrote:

Reply to
Bill Lahr

Reply to
L.W.(Bill) Hughes III

Ditto.

Mike

"L.W.(Bill) Hughes III" wrote:

Reply to
Mike Romain

As you know it has sludge you might want to change the oil and filter early for a few times with something that is very high in detergents.

Reply to
billy ray

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