Newbie Jeep questions

Hi y'all. I have Jeep-on-the-brain. I'm hoping to be able to buy my first Jeep by end of March at the latest, so I'm starting to read up some to get up to speed so I can make an intelligent purchase. I'm starting to look towards a late 70's model CJ5 or CJ7 with V8 and manual tranny. I have a bunch of questions that I'd appreciate input on from y'all and here they are... I apologize in advance if the fomat of this post is out-of-whack since I've cut-and-pasted some questions into here from different sources.

I found a good page for reference numbers on AMC engines:

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Looks like both V8s 304 and 360) have enough cubic inches to put out some real power with the right tweaks. I'm just wondering what the proven "right tweaks" are for these engines. As far as lifts go, I've seen the spring-over lift idea. At a glance it looks simple to do... Looks like it would give you some really effective and immediate lift, too. Drawbacks to it? Probably inexpensive to do it, too. I'm lucky enough to have good welder and can make strong (but not pretty) welds with it. There are better lift options? Probably? Pointers to a good website that shows the installation of good lift kit with good explanations of what's going on as they do it? I think if I get a stock CJ (if such a thing still exists :-) that I'll probably only want to lift it about 4" and then maybe put a 2-3" body lift on it and maybe do some body trimming to fit tires if needed. Are the suspension lift kits and body lift kits something someone can do on their own in a garage at home if they have a "pretty good set" of tools including a welder? (I realize that's kind of a loaded question but maybe the responses to it will give me a good idea if it can be done or not or it it's just something to forget about trying on my own.) I've read what a "lincoln locker" is and why it's a "bad thing" so I'd wanna stay away from that. How about recommendations for good books to read like "Jeep Owner's Bible" (that a good one?) and also links to good informative Jeep websites? I loaded up over 7000 messages on this newsgroup and am looking over them. Not reading all of them, of course, but trying to read the stuff that looks like it would maybe answer some of my questions. Is there a FAQ or website set up for this group? Something for someone like me who has never owned a 4WD vehicle before. "Intro To Jeeps For Dummies." Like what is a "shackle?" Is that the bracket thing that acts as the leaf spring attachment point? I'd like to see a "things to look for when buying a used Jeep" kind of list if there's one out there. Thanks for taking the time to read through this and hopefully answer a couple of my questions. Travis

-- Travis FOR SALE: '63 VW Camo Baja... $1000 *FIRM*

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that soak into your ears are whispered, not yelled.

:wq!

Reply to
travis
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Reply to
attnews

The CJ's are your best choice. Don't restrict yourself to the V8's. The basic 4-banger is a great engine for tough trails. Good CJ's are getting hard to find so make a good rust free body your first criteria.

Reply to
Michael Stevens

You get more than enough power for most types of offroading from the 4 banger. Your intrest in the big V8s sends chills down my spine. It appears to me that you are looking to build a street racer, and Jeeps just make very poor platforms for that sort of thing. A better Jeep is one that can be tolerated to drive on the street, but really shines when there is no pavement to be found for miles.

As far as lifts go, I've

It turns out that a spring over costs about the same as putting on new springs. The problem is, there is a lot of fabrication work that must be done to make the spring over work. You either need a large wallet, or significant skills.

I'm lucky

Why in Hell would you want to even consider 3" of body lift. You are definitely a poser if this amount of body lift is even remotely interesting to you.

Are the suspension

My teen-aged daughter can install new springs, certainly you can figure it out.

I've read

The differential allows the tires on each side of the vehicle to turn at different speeds, such as might happen backing out of your driveway and turning into the street. The Lincoln Locker simply welds the spider gears to the carrier so both tires always turn at the same speed. You figure it out what the obvious problem is with this set up.

How about recommendations for good books to read

Moses Ludel wrote a great book.

I loaded up over 7000 messages on this

You need to find a Jeep club in your community and hang out with people that know what they are doing. You are getting ready to spend some serious money in all the wrong places.

"Intro To Jeeps For Dummies." Like what is a

Yes.

I'd like to see a "things to look for when buying

The CJs you are looking at are going to be rather rare, and you will be getting a project vehicle for sure. You might open your consideration to the full line of CJs that run to 1987, and the YJs that run to 1994. I would encourage you to more carefully consider the YJs from '91 and later. In '91, the YJs I6 motor got fuel injection, and this is a huge improvement on the carburated versions from earlier years.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 11:12:28 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" shared the following:

I just figured too much power would be better than not enough. I don't intend to keep my foot slammed to the floor while driving it.

Do you see the word "Newbie" in the subject?

Back off, dude. I was thinking around 37" tires. What kind of suspension/body lift would I need to clear that, since you obviously know more about this stuff than me? I *said* I was new to this. I was asking innocent questions. I'd appreciate it if you'd either answer me politely or just don't answer me at all.

You have a bad day at work or something? You're coming off like a real jerk.

I *said* "I've read what a "lincoln locker" is and why it's a "bad thing" so I'd wanna stay away from that." Maybe if you'd read my post before responding to it? I don't want to get started on the wrong foot out here so how about cutting me a little slack instead of jumping all over my case when I ask a few simple, admittedly "newbie" questions? So far you've been the only one to be rude to me in your responses.

-- Travis FOR SALE: '63 VW Camo Baja... $1000 *FIRM*

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that soak into your ears are whispered, not yelled.

:wq!

Reply to
travis

Why do you want 37" tires? What do you plan to do with this vehicle? I would suggest you start out with something closer to stock and drive it for a while. If you wanted to learn all about flying, you wouldn't go out and buy a older rag wing and immediately start modifying it, would you? You need to get to know your vehicle and, then, make the modifications you need in order for your vehicle to perform the way you want it to. 90% of off roading is in the driver ("the nut that holds the wheel"). I have seen good drivers with near stock jeeps do things that highly modified jeeps with inexperienced drivers shouldn't even attempt. Take it slow and do your homework...

Reply to
TJim

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:09:54 -0400, "TJim" shared the following:

No good reason, really. That's part of why I'm asking questions out here. To get good, reasonable answers from people like yourself who have "been there." Maybe I should start with something like 33" tires? I run 31" truck tires on the back of a baja and they just don't seem that big. I wasn't thinking that a step up to 37" tires would be all that much, but like I said I'm really new to this.

I plan on using it to get to work when the weather is too nasty to ride my motorcycle, and I plan to go offroading with it at least 2-3 times a month like I currently do with my baja. I know some decently challenging trails in the area, places I haven't even attempted to go all the way through with my baja. Lots of good mud around here and some decent rocky hills. I'd try to say something like "On a scale of

1-10 for difficulty I'd rate the trails a 6" or something like that, but I think my scale will need some serious adjusting when going from baja to Jeep.

I probably will if for no other reason that for the expense. It would be hard for me to get a Jeep with 33" tires in good shape and try to convince my wife it would be a good idea to stack them up and put over $1,000 into tires. ;-)

No, of course not. You're right and I realize that. I'm just trying to think ahead, I guess. I *think* I'd like to wind up with 37" or larger tires eventually so I was just knocking around ideas about how to get to that level. I don't even own a Jeep yet. :-) Hopefully soon.

I agree. I've gotten pretty good at using the vehicle I have now to get through some stuff that surprises people all the time. I'm not trying to promote my website, but it's in my URL. Take a look at some of the stuff I've been through. I know you're right, though. I'm just excited about getting a Jeep. I'm gonna wind up not modifying it at all for probably at least 6 months until I get to know it some.

Good advice. I'll try to follow it. I just ordered 3 books today which I hope will help: JEEP 4X4 PERFORMANCE HANDBOOK , JEEP OWNERS BIBLE (BOOK) , HAYNES CJ MANUAL 1949-86 Wish me luck and thanks for the response, Jim!

-- Travis FOR SALE: '63 VW Camo Baja... $1000 *FIRM*

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that soak into your ears are whispered, not yelled.

:wq!

Reply to
travis

All three good books. The Jeep 4x4 Performance Handbook will teach you a

*lot* if you're starting off. Read it first. The most important thing to remember, if you're transitioning from a Baja Bug to a Jeep is that you don't drive them the same way. Baja Bug = fast, Jeep = slow! With a Jeep, you crawl over obstacles (except for mud and sand and even then, you're going considerably slower than you're probably used to). If you try to drive your Jeep the way you would drive a Baja Bug, you will break things and probably flip your Jeep. (Not that driving slowly is any guarantee, right, Jenn?) More often than not, you will be in 1st gear, 4wd low range, engine at idle (or just enough throttle to keep it running) unless you're trying to clean mud out of your tires, float on top of loose sand, or step up onto that big rock ledge in front of you. Another thing. Don't use 4wd on pavement. Reserve it for off road uses unless you're on hard packed or deep snow or some other *very* slippery surface.
Reply to
TJim

I did read your post.

I wasn't trying to be rude, only truthful. You do not need a big old V8, which is a large part of why you can't even get them anymore. Running 37s on a CJ is crazy and unnecessary, most of us here run 32s or 33s. A few run

35s. The vast majority of Jeeps run on 32s or 33s.

You don't want a Lincoln Locker if you loan if you plan on driving on the street. If you live in the Snow Belt, you might not want a Detroit Locker either, in this case you will probably want to look towards the manual lockers like the ARB or the Ox. The manual lockers can be switched on and off as the needs demand. The problem with an auto locker, like a Detroit, in the Snow Belt is the tires on the locked axle turn at the same speed all the time, and if you encounter a slick surface, like ice, with a locker, the vehicle can move to the side very suddenly. We call a locker a Low Side Finder because the vehicle will (that's WILL) move to the low side of the road very quickly if you are not careful.

My honest suggestion is to get into a Jeep, CJ or YJ (frankly a TJ is probably better than either of the others for out-of-box capability and modification acceptance) with a 258 ci (4.2L) or 4.0L I6 motor. You should start with tires in the range of 32 or 33 inches and gears in the range of

4.56:1. With 4.56 gears and 33s, you will be able to drive on the freeways easily, and you can crawl along over stumps and boulders. If you later find that you really need 37s, then you will also need to get new axles anyhow, and then you will be wanting gearsets in the range of 5.22. Supporting 37" tires is going to be a huge project that probably should not be attempted by the run-of-the-mill shadetree mechanic.

Given your expressed intentions, I would be encouraging you to dial in on Jeeps with a D44 rear axle. The CJs will probably not have this option on them. The reality is that the D44 was not even a factory option on the CJ until after the production runs you have expressed an interest in, and the D44 was applied to many of the last year's production of the CJ7. It is a factory option of the TJ, and many TJs that were dealer stock had the D44 installed on them so customers could "take one home tonight."

The coil spring suspension of the TJ is remarkably better in many areas than the old leaf springs used on the CJ and YJ.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:40:21 -0400, "TJim" shared the following:

You know it! :-) Yeah, the idea with a baja is to *charge* the big mud puddles and for that matter, even the hills. The momentum and light weight is what gets a baja to go where it goes. I have stock gearing in my baja with 31" truck tires so I'm constantly slipping the clutch and trying to get up enough speed while offroad to get my revs up to a point where I have a little useable torque.

Yeah, that'll take some getting used to for me, but I'm looking forward to learning. I have mud in my blood. ;-)

Sounds like an inside story. heh heh

Yeah, better gas mileage that way too, right? I used to get almost insulted when my Jeep friend would join me offroading and not switch into 4WD. I would be like "Oh, you think you can hang with the baja when you're only in 2WD!?!?" He would be like "Yes." And then he would. grrr... Hey, I'm sold on the Jeep idea! :-D

-- Travis FOR SALE: '63 VW Camo Baja... $1000 *FIRM*

formatting link
that soak into your ears are whispered, not yelled.

:wq!

Reply to
travis

Travis, you're on the right path and you're asking good questions. I was going to recommend Jim Allens "4x4 Performance Handbook" but it looks like you already ordered it. I think you will get a LOT of great info in there. Read it cover to cover at least twice!

There's nothing wrong with wanting to build a rock crawler type vehicle right from the start (37" tires, 4:1 transfer case, Dana 60's, etc...). After all, it's your money. Myself and a few friends are building ours step by step a little each year and sometimes I wish I had just decided all the things I wanted to do from the start and dumped the $$ in right away. Making and remaking changes/upgrades will start nickle and diming you to death. I'm getting ready to have my driveshafts remade for the 2nd time!

I will caution you a bit. If you want to drive this thing on the road "when the weather is too nasty" you need to make careful choices about tire size, gearing and lockers. A locker won't do you ANY good in bad weather (snow, rain). It will most likely make the vehicle drive much worse. Sounds like you need to be in the market for a selectable locker (ARB, Detroit Electrac, OX). Keep in mind that the more "Extreme" this vehicle becomes, the more likely it will drive like crap on the road. They steer funny (bump steer), the center of gravity is raised (no sharp maneuvers), may stop slower (stock brakes trying to stop 37" tires), etc..... I think you get my point. I would not personally drivea vehicle back and forth to work that had over about 33" tires, but that's just me. OK my CJ has 35's, but I only drive it once a week or so, and I work like 3 miles from my house ;-)

Keep asking questions and don't be afraid to ask some "dumb" ones. I know I did a couple years ago when I bought my CJ, and I'm glad I did. Most people here are great and will give you a lot of valuable information.

Also keep in mind that not all answers will be 100% serious. Don't take offense if someone makes a few smarta$$ remarks. Just shrug it off, it's gonna happen. It's a public forum afterall.

In closing I also recommend buying/wheeling/driving the vehicle to work for a while before I start making too many decisions about what you do and don't need. Don't be in so much of a hurry that you make rash decisions. Creating a good on road/off road vehicle takes time, patience and trial and error.

Kevin (stepping off my soapbox)

Reply to
Kevin Sperle

I find 33's are a sweet all round off road and daily driver tire.

When I built up my CJ7, I went with a 2.5" spring and 1/2" shackle (YJ shackles are 1" longer than CJ ones) lift. My body does sit about an inch higher than stock and I have tons of room for the 33's.

When you start going monster tires, you turn it into a 'trailer queen' fast, the on road performance and handling start dropping radically fast.

I also am a firm believer that 'tall skinny rules!' for tires. I leave folks with fat tires in the dust with their jaws hanging open as they try and try and try to get up to where I am sitting taking photos of them trying to get to me.

My CJ7 has 3.31 gears and open diffs....

The skinny tires leave tread marks up sand pit walls and through mud. The fat tires don't have near the psi on the footprint, so they leave rooster tail marks up as far as they can get.

Just go look at any logger's or anyone else's truck that actually works in the bush. You won't see fat tires, you will see tall skinny.

That goes triple for on road and snow or ice...

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

travis wrote:

Reply to
Mike Romain

LOL!

I had a 68 'baja' Bug with G78x15's on the rear, Mallory coil and dual point distributor, header and a hydraulic 3 speed semi automatic tranny. Put your hand on the shifter and a switch popped it into neutral, let off and it was like popping the clutch and would just smoke the G78's. Damn it was fun, but well, a Jeep is just sooo much nicer.... Though a jeep don't float... ;-)

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

travis wrote:

Reply to
Mike Romain

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:51:10 -0600, "Kevin Sperle" shared the following:

Do as you say, not as you do? ;-) Yeah, I'll see what the Jeep I wind up in has when I get it and drive it like that until I feel like I've decided I need to go up/down a step in tire size or up/down a step in gear ratio or put a body lift on or.... All that stuff. Since I don't have the Jeep yet all I can do is dream about it so I might as well start dreaming about some 44" tires, huh? :-D

I promise. heh heh Thanks for the response. Travis

-- Travis FOR SALE: '63 VW Camo Baja... $1000 *FIRM*

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that soak into your ears are whispered, not yelled.

:wq!

Reply to
travis

See this:

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-John

Reply to
John Sevey

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 20:13:51 GMT, John Sevey shared the following:

Ow. Thanks.

-- Travis FOR SALE: '63 VW Camo Baja... $1000 *FIRM*

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that soak into your ears are whispered, not yelled.

:wq!

Reply to
travis

Hello, Travis, I wanted to put my two cents in on your question of what to look for. I dunno if this will help but I just ended a 5 month stretch of heated looking for a YJ and I learned a couple of things that made or broke (most) deals for me.

Rust. Rust is king. Jeeps (I'm not referring to the Jeep brand Cherokee or whatever; in my mind "Jeep" means CJ or Wrangler) get abused. In the north they get used to push snowplows (looks silly, but they do it; front weighted down too much, etc) or at least get used for transportation when the white-stuff is on the ground...with salt. I'm not talking the talc-powder rust that isn't getting into the depths of the metal, but the kind that bubbles up and flakes off in 1/16th or even 1/8th inch flakes. I viewed several (up north on vacation there) that the skid-plate under the transmission/transfercase was missing bolt heads (not the complete bolts...but just the heads...they'd snapped or twisted off), and huge flakes of rust eating away at the metal of both the skid-plate and the frame. As far as I'm concerned, we're talking the kind of rust that would eat away at the structural thickness of the metal.

Welds. I saw at least one Jeep where the shock-mount on one axle was welded back into place. The problem is not only has it seen it's rougher days off-road, but what quality is the weld? Who says the person who did it knew what they were doing and that the weld will hold up?

Now, I saw the kind of rust I'm talking about up north (Massachusetts) here in Texas at a dealership (used car dealership). Up north I found an abundance of Jeeps like I was looking for and they were cheaper up there than here in Texas. The one I'm particularly thinking of here in Texas, which had similar rust to the northern ones, was admittedly (by the dealer guy) an "import"..it wasn't from Texas originally. So the rust has to be looked at for the reason that it may have been brought in from (what I think is) the cheaper market up north. Of course, beaches are a problem, too.

I saw rusted out floor pans, seats that used to be held by 4 bolts now held by 3, rotors and drums that were almost nothing but flaked rust, frames that you wonder how they held themselves up, let alone the Jeep, and tranny/transfercase skid-plates held on by will-power alone, it seemed.

Another important aspect for me in my hunt for a YJ was that I found a local machine shop that stocks reman'd I-6's (long blocks) for these things for about $700 bucks. That means, since I can swap an engine myself, I don't have to sweat the mileage on the Jeep (for the purposes of wondering how many miles I can get out of it before it blows). I was able to buy a Jeep, regardless of mileage, as long as the price was what I was willing to pay.

It took months (and lots of prayer and looking), but I found it, and I learned some things to look for, and that I can swap engines any day I wish for about $700 bucks. I would say to you, look for serious rust, broken/repaired frame/suspension members, and find out what it'd cost you to swap an engine (or transmission) if a sweet deal came along that proved to be too sweet to be true.

HTH.

--HC

Reply to
hboothe

"Ow" is right. Fortunately, she's fine, although a bit broker than before. One of the first mods you might consider is a decent roll cage. One of our club members flipped his CJ last winter (on the road), his stock cage collapsed, and he spent months in the hospital. He is still recovering.

Reply to
TJim

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