Soft top mounting problems

There is an aftermarket kit to replace the holes in the sheet metal with riveted inserts that are threaded on the inside to accept machine screws instead of sheet metal screws. This is considered a permanent repair. Welding the holes shut will probably not work because the weld is likely to be harder and more brittle than the surrounding metal. The likely result of welding the holes is broken off screws for this reason. The cause of the screw holes wearing out is improper tightening of the screws, either too loose or too tight. (Easy for me to say. My Jeep has ten years on it and the retainer strip is still as tight as new.)

Earle

Where would I find such a thing? I don't remember seeing one in the Quadratec catalog I had lying around someplace. It sounds like this repair kit uses something akin to rivnuts though, and if they go in the stock mounting holes I don't think it'd work in this case. There are cracks around the holes, and I'm pretty sure a rivet put into them would eventually pull right out. I could feasibly modify the one I've got to use rivnuts and drill a series of new holes, though... maybe that'd work. I want the thing to be removable, but if I can't have it that way then so be it.

I was figuring that'd be an issue, since I have no way to safely anneal the welds after making them, but it seemed like it could be done with enough patience and care. The body screws that are used to hold it on seem like they'd survive in such an environment, but the real thing is I simply don't want to weld up all those holes. The cracks in them would make welding them a nightmare, and I loathe the idea of all the grinding and finishing work I'd have to do.

The factory can be blamed on this one, because the original failure that occurred was due to holes stripping and cracks forming in the original configuration. I did what I could before, but I figured it'd probably fail again after a few years, which it did. Well, hopefully that aftermarket kit will address the issues I'm having with it. Something tried and true would be ideal in this situation.

Bryan

They are like rivnuts. The time I saw them was on a Jeep whose owner was buying some stuff from me, and I didn't ask where he got them. If worse comes to worst you could buy a new windshield frame. Stay away from fiberglass.

Earle

I had just this same problem when I had my YJ. I upgauged the screws and then drilled new holes near the ends. I do like Earle's suggestions about the riveted inserts. Hope you find them. Wish I had thought of that then.... Tomes

On or about Fri, 14 Nov 2003, The Hurdy Gurdy Man of snipped-for-privacy@linux.webicommer...:

Dreary old J.C. Whitney sells real Rivitnut and Threadsert kits, but they are expensive. I bought one for a job, so I can write part of the cost off my taxes, but for a one-time hobby use...

Harbor Freight sells a knock-off rivitnut setting tool that doubles as a pop rivit gun for considerably less than the real article.

My local True Value Hardware store sells RivitNuts, but not the setting tool.

I don't think that I'd choose rivitnuts to repair this problem, though. The rivitnuts stand proud of the surface and might allow the strip to wiggle, eventually causing more problems. It will also increase the gap that is supposed to hold the top to the windshield and might allow it to pop out at speed.

I'm thinking that the right way to fix it is to spring for a new windshield frame.

I had the same problem with my 91 YJ I just bought same self tapping screws and put one between the old ones then filled the old holes.Holds great and you can see it even if the top is off.

They're available through a number of places local to me, but I was hoping for a complete solution in kit form that would reduce the amount of time I'd spend collecting parts and tools. It sounds like no such solution is easily obtained, though.

I was thinking larger holes would need to be drilled into the strip I'm trying to hold down so that it continued to sit flush against the window frame, and then use good sized washers with the bolts screwed into the rivnuts to hold it all down. Which wouldn't be too bad a modification to do, I suppose, but I'll have to look into it. Aircraft structural rivets would be cheaper than rivnuts, and probably more permanent as well.

That'd increase the pricetag on the repair by an order of magnitude, though, plus introduce the added complexity of getting the frame painted to match the current body color. And in the end I'd still have the same flawed design that would inevitably wear out again in a couple of years like it did before. It sounds like I'm going to have to roll my own on this repair. With no kits conveniently available and the prohibitive cost of a new window frame, it's back to the drawing board with me. That's alright, though. I've had good success with my repairs so far, so I'm fairly confident I can make a lasting repair on this one as long as I'm willing to give up on a search for a quick fix and just go with something that takes a few days instead of a few hours. Thanks for all the suggestions!

Bryan

Weld fresh metal into the holes and continue to push metal down each until you've got some buildup... then redrill or better yet tap the holes for a FINE thread bolt instead of sheet metal screws.

The screws are the main reason it rips up. They only contact a tiny portion of the metal around them, a few millimeters of the thread bites on about a quarter of every hole. If you tap and convert to fine thread each fastener will be able to bear a lot more tension.

You could also use JB weld, force it down the holes until you get enough buildup to able to tap through it for a coarse thread bolt, although this would probably be pretty tedious; I'm sure JB weld would bear the load. By tapping like this you'd be reducing the stress on any one single hole by a huge amount because you're no longer relying on a tiny part of a screw contacting a small bit of the sheet metal.

Both of these would be easy, and cheap (if you have a welder, or 6 bucks for JB weld), and IMHO either would be a lot more permanent than riveting...

Sheesh!!!!! Just measure 1" (or 1/2") over from the holes that are there already, drill a new hole in the frame for some new screws, then do the same with the channel. The old holes? Leave em alone, they won't hurt anything. Done!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tookie - 88YJ,"Money Hungry"

Obviously you've never had to repair something for my brother! He has an almost magical (or perhaps cursed) ability to have things break around him, whether he touches them or not. This roof rail thing is a perfect example of that. Other examples include every other car he has owned, every piece of home entertainment gear he's used, computers, kitchen equipment, plumbing... heck, even his keychain fob just broke in a totally unexpected way!

I tell ya, the boy's jinxed. I generally get to fix things for him since most people just throw a fairly simple patch onto things, or replace a part with an identical part that has the same "design defects" which he can somehow magically locate and trigger. The Jeep is the ONLY vehicle he's ever owned that has been able to survive his curse enough to keep on driving... a testamonial to Jeep ruggedness, for certain. Still, in this case the rail on the window frame needs an improved fastening design, hence my anal and exhaustive search. Just drilling new holes won't survive... that's an identical repair to one I tried in the past, and it held for about a year and a half. I want this one to be permanent. He knows he's cursed, and so he gets visibly nervous around stuff that has broken before out of fear that it'll break again. I want him to look at it and feel confident it's not going to fail. It's more a point of personal pride than anything else, I think. For anyone else your suggestion would work just fine... but trust me, for my brother, I'd be revisiting the repair in a very short span of time!

Bryan

The hole welding trick has been discussed previously in the thread, the concern being that the resulting weldment will be too hard to be practically drilled and tapped since I can't safely anneal the welds afterwards... still, I like your idea of tapping for a fine thread bolt. That would be preferable to a rivet as it's removable, so perhaps I'll give that a try instead. I'm fairly certain an aircraft structural rivet would hold better (those things are amazing) since the stresses encountered here are very similar to what aircraft rivets are designed to survive (lots of peeling and shearing forces), but I'd prefer something that can be unscrewed and removed it necessary. Thanks for the suggestion!

I'll be attempting the repair in the very near future, I'll let everyone know the end result.

Bryan

Ok, so I finally found the time and collected all the parts required to repair the front roof rail for my brother's '94 YJ. After many good suggestions, I decided to go for the installation of rivnuts in place of the factory screws, plus drilling a bunch of new holes for rivnuts in an attempt to compensate for the cracks in the old holes. This seemed the fastest and most economical option, since time was a factor in it as well.

To start out, I went down to Harbor Freight to pick up a rivnut kit figuring that even if the rivnuts themselves weren't suitable I'd at least need the installer either way. As a test I selected a 10-24 rivnut, drilled a hole in a scrap piece of 18 gauge steel sheet, inserted the rivnut, squeezed down on the handle of the tool... and promptly ripped the threads clean out of the rivnut. And that wasn't with much force applied, either, which said to me that Harbor Freight's rivnut offerings simply would not suffice for this repair. Not surprising, I know, but it was worth a try.

So, I figured I'd go with the more rugged option, and headed down to Aircraft Spruce to pick up some REAL Rivnuts, as in the name brand version. Additionally I purchased a bunch of aircraft grade bolts and washers to thread into them since I didn't want to skimp on anything. Keeping in line with my normal bad luck, Aircraft Spruce doesn't carry

With all that out of the way, I mounted the rail onto the window frame using just the two outside edge screws, redrilled all the holes so they were big enough to take the new 10-32 bolts, and then removed the rail and drilled the window frame holes large enough to accept the rivnuts. Next I installed the first series of rivnets. With that done, I reinstalled the rail and drilled even more holes, plus drilled out the two outer edge holes I skipped in the first round. In order to compensate for the additional metal added to the window frame by the rivnuts, I lightly tapped the installed rivnuts with a hammer to sink them down just enough to make everything flush. In cases where the frame was cracked and wouldn't properly handle this, I created a divot in the rail that would clear the collar on the rivnut using a hammer and an open vise as a backing against the rail. Worked pretty well overall, though it did take some slight tuning to get everything properly flush once it was entirely installed. No big deal though.

The end result looks like this if anyone wants to see:

Thanks again to everyone for their suggestions, it looks like this is a repair that should even be able to survive my brother's mechanical curse!

Nice, and thanks for the tip on Harbor Freight. I can't even believe that somebody uses 10-24 thread for this application.

Earle