TJ for Icy Roads, Deep Snow and Daily Driver?

Time to start thinking about a new vehicle and I could use some feedback from people who have lived with a TJ as a daily driver in an area that gets real snow. Any feedback you fine folks can give will be much appreciated.

Background:

I live in a rural part of central New York (USA) and we get a fair amount of snow in the winter (10+ feet a winter). I live at the top of a hill (roads up to my house in the 8-10% grade range), have a 150 foot gravel driveway, and we get a fair amount of wind causing significant drifting (e.g., from plowed to drifted shut within 90 minutes). Current vehicles include a '99 Subaru SUS Limited (basically a legacy sedan body on Outback running gear) and an '03 Chrysler T&C Limited with AWD (I've got a wife and two young kids ? can ya tell?).

The SUS is what I drive the most and 90% of my driving is with me alone in the car (if the whole family is headed out we take the minivan). Most of my driving is to and from work (less than 5 miles) and around town. I am a volunteer EMT and there are times when I have to get to the station (QUICKLY if possible) independent of weather, and my job also requires me to go to work independent of weather.

There two vehicles that have caught my eye and I can only have one: the '05 Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT and the Jeep TJ Sport with LSD in the rear, dual tops, wheel/tire package, etc. I know, I know, VERY different from each other?

My current vehicles, the subbie and the awd T&C, are both very good in the snow and ice. However, both have been stuck in my driveway due to the same problem: The driveway gets cleared, it drifts over, and in trying to get out (for work or an ambulance call) the vehicle "floats" on the snow leaving little to no contact between the wheels and the frozen gravel driveway. Cursing, digging and pushing result. Now, I admit that this doesn't happen that often, but when it does, and it does multiple times each winter, I REALLY wish I had more ground clearance. Also, the SUS's engine is anemic. While the car is a blast to drive on slick roads (as long as things are not too deep), there is no real "fun factor" in the SUS on dry roads and it is boring as anything in the summer.

Where does this leave me and why post here? Well, I am torn between the new subbie 2.5 GT sedan (which now has a 250 HP turbo engine) and the TJ. I am finding myself drawn to TJs for reasons I cannot quite explain. I want my next ride to be fun in some way, but it also has to serve my day-to-day driving needs. The GT sedan will have a bit of "fun" in it given it has almost 90 more HP than my SUS. On the other hand, it will be even lower to the ground than my current subbie, and that can't be good for November to March. Having owned Subbies before, I know it will be dependable. The TJ? That's why I am here:

How deep can the snow be for a stock TJ (with winter tires, of course) to still be able to make it through? On Edmunds the subbie outback chassis is listed as having a ground clearance that isn't that far off from a stock TJ. On my subbie the entire undercarriage is at about the same height and makes a perfect raft on which to float on the snow. I presume the TJ actually has much less of the vehicle at the clearance height and that it will take much more snow to slow it down, but I would appreciate reports from those who have experience with this as if the TJ doesn't win here, I can't really justify getting it.

How is the TJ on snowy and icy roads? The Subaru and Chrysler AWD systems have been excellent and I have never dealt with a "real" 4x4 before. My understanding is that the Jeep is basically a rear wheel drive vehicle until one shifts into 4 Hi or 4 Lo, which you can't do until you are already on slippery surfaces. The subbie tends to under-steer in low traction situations (unless I purposely work it to get the back end loose, which I like to do in empty parking lots), am I correct in assuming the TJ tends to over-steer? In a fun way or scary way?

Clearly a Jeep is a Jeep. That is, I understand I'd be giving up the heated seats and mirrors, memory seats, etc. that I currently have and could have on the '05 GT. Anyone make the move to a TJ and miss these things? Right now it sounds OK to me as we'll still have all the electronic crap in the minivan, plus the top comes off the JEEP! However, looking at and riding in a vehicle for short times during the shopping process is different than getting into one everyday for 5 to

10 years.

I know a lot of the above is blasphemy in this group (I'm not planning on climbing rock strewn mountains, though there are some state forest

4x4 roads around here I'd like to try), and that in most ways I don't "need" a Jeep. I just might, however, WANT one, and I'd like to go into it at least knowing what the vehicle can do when it comes to the practical needs I have.

Thank you in advance for any help!

DJ

(P.S. The other option is a F250 4x4 with a plow ? No more drifting issues? I just don't want that much truck)

Reply to
DJ
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Reply to
L.W.(ßill) Hughes III

Get the F-250 with a plow.

You can make extra money (or friends) plowing driveways.

Reply to
Al B. Back

I live in NE Ohio, in what us locals call the snow belt, and I drive a '03 TJ with the 2.4L 4 cyl engine. I've driven through drifting snow, on the passenger side snow was up to the fender, drivers side only a foot or so. the TJ did not have a problem. the next day my wife complained of a vibration while on the highway, I told her to stop at a car wash and spray the snow out of the inside of the rim, which fixed the problem. Most of the time I drive through less dramatic conditions, but for the occasional time I love having the TJ. it has great ground clearance, all the components are simple (KISS concept). On ice it becomes a bit of a challenge, the short wheel base makes spin outs a good possibility. I have to admit that my '00 S-10 w/ the 4.3L v6 4x4 is much better on the ice, but doesn't have nearly the ground clearance, the weight of the engine and lack of weight in the back, when it starts to slide, I just point the front tires where I want to go and hit the gas. When I first switched to the Jeep I tried this maneuver pulling into a drive and slid into the curb (when I hit the gas it just kept pushing me forward). In my truck I would have been afraid of a broken tie rod, or worse, but the jeep merely popped the bead off the tire and after a tire change not a problem. through slushy conditions, often the roads I drive on, never a problem, the jeep just keeps plowing on.

"DJ" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com...

Reply to
Closed

I'm in Minneapolis,MN , have a RX300 and a TJ. Always take the TJ when it's bad out, never been sorry.

JD 2K-TJ

There are some simple truths...And the dogs know what they are." Joseph Duemer

Reply to
JD

Get a horse at least you will have a convertible, 4x4, and fertilizer for the lawn, it's environmentally friendly and I would not have to read your alot to say about nothing.

Reply to
HarryS

LSD in the rear? Was that an option? I'd take Weed in the seat if I could! har har har

Reply to
SB

How deep are the drifts vs the ground clearance of the Jeep? The TJ is very good in the snow, but it will get stuck just like any other vehicle if you start pushing snow with the under carriage. (I learned this the hard way, and trust me if you have to be pulled out of a drift by your wife's mini van, you will NEVER live that down ) The advantage of the TJ is you can put a lift on that will get you pretty much get you over every thing. If my lifted TJ can't drive through it then you need a snowmobile any way.

Top down on the TJ is a lot of fun, but driving a Jeep is not the same as driving a sports car. They pretty much suck when it comes to handling. And the TJ gets lousy gas milage. On a good day mine gets 15 mpg. Daily driving is certainly possible, I did it for 40,000+ miles.

The second worst car I have ever owned was a Subaru, so your milage with the TJ will vary. Mine has been pretty good, given where I drive it. Others have had nothing by trouble with them. The six cylinder engine is bullet proof and with proper care it will go 200,000+ miles.

It depends on your driving skill. If you want to just drive through the snow like it isn't there you can do that as long as the snow is one or two inches higher than the TJ's ground clearance. Deep snow drifts require a different technique. I like to punch through those with several attacks and retreats. And in the worst case buy a winch and pull yourself through the drift.

I've drove my TJ as a daily driver for 3 years, in every kind of weather. In the snow it does fine as long as you remember you are driving a short wheel based, rear wheel drive vehicle. Putting it into 4 hi is as simple as reaching down and pulling the lever. In patchy road conditions I'll shift into and out of 4wd many times depending upon the road.

Under-steer? Over-steer? Forget these terms if you drive a Jeep. Think tall, tippy, and sluggish. Yes, if you goose it in the snow in 2wd it will over-steer, just like any rwd vehicle. Put it into 4wd and goose it and the circle only gets bigger. On the road remember - short wheel base, rwd and you will be fine. Forget that and you will be in the ditch.

Yup, I missed those things so much that when the chance came to use a car as a daily driver I jumped at the chance. My TJ is now my toy. It comes out to tool around town with the top off, or to go on some fairly serious 4wd trails. On a daily basis I drive a 13 year old Honda Accord. I call it my transportation appliance. I have about as much feeling for the Honda as I have for my toaster. But just like my toaster it has a job to do, in this case get me back and forth from work reliably and in comfort. On bad snow days I'll get the TJ out.

If more that one vehicle is an option, maybe you should consider an older 4wd for those snowy days and a Subaru for every day driving.

Dean

Reply to
Dean

Hi DJ,

I don't have a TJ, but I do drive an old Cherokee (XJ) in the worst of Canadian winter conditions. The XJ has same engine, t-case, transmission, axles, steering, suspension, etc. as can be found in Wranglers. The main difference is a longer wheel base.

My XJ has a 4.5" lift and 33" tires. Last winter I had the thing out during a blizzard that dumped over three feet with 65 mph winds. Worked like a champ.

I say go for the TJ, but get the long wheel base version:

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It will be much more stable on icy roads than the shorter version. It also has some nice options included such as a rear Dana 44 with LSD and

30" tires. Cherokees have an optional 'SelecTrac' full time 4wd that was never offered in the Wranglers because of limited space due to the shorter wheel base. Unlimited currently has only part time 4x4, but it may come with the full-time next year. I have the part time 4x4. Full time would be nice for mixed conditions, but it's really not necessary. When you see a snow patch ahead, just pull the lever.

By the way, here's an ideal plow for driveways. Made in your neighborhood:

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If you really want to do it right, wait for the long wheel base Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited due out in November. The short Rubicon has been available for a few years:

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It has 31" tires for even more clearance and 4.10 gears for lots of pulling power. It has a gear driven limited slip in the rear that is superior to the clutch-pad TracLoc in other models. In addition to the rear LSD, both front and rear Dana 44s pneumatically lock up at the push of a button for the ultimate in traction. It has a part time transfer case with a whopping 4:1 low range ratio for super slow off-road crawling. Add the long wheel base with extra cargo area and you have your snow bashing, trail riding, go anywhere family convertible. Your kids will never want to ride in the minivan again and you'll wonder why it took you so long to get a Jeep.

Steve

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DJ wrote:

Reply to
Steve

Every year, my wife and I take my '99 TJ Sport from DC area to Michigan, then across Ontario to my folks' house in Cortland. I've got

31's on it (muds) and never had a problem. We rented a small Japanese car of some sort a few years back and got stuck in western NY, so now we use the TJ. It's unstoppable, even in good-size drifts. Loud on road trips, though :) I'd definitely go with the TJ. Honestly, I wouldn't bother with the hard top, either. Even in the winter there it stays warm enough inside. The new soft tops after '95 rule.

Matt

Reply to
Matt

Forgot to mention, we take the Jeep on that huge trip at CHRISTMAS.

Matt

Reply to
Matt

Thanks for the input everyone!

DJ

Reply to
DJ

I have lived in Syracuse, Parish, and the Adirondacks most of my life, and I feel your pain. Honestly, the best suggestion would be a snow fence or windbreak to minimize the drifting. The Subaru would be far superior to any short wheelbase Jeep on icy roads, but I would prefer the Jeep if I had to drive in 2 feet of snow the whole way to work. I have owned three full-size Cherokee/Grand Wagoneers and found them to be perfect in the winter, as long as they were in 4WD/Quadratrac. I owned a Grand Cherokee with Quadratrac and didn't like it as well as the larger Jeeps. I was very happy with both Subarus I have owned - MUCH more stable in slippery conditions. I have also had two 4WD pickups, and theye were very squirrely in slippery conditions - great in deep snow. Currently, I have a Saturn LW300 (FWD) that drives great in up to 6"of snow. I also have a YJ that I can use if the roads haven't been cleared (which is rare up here) but the top comes off in May and goes back on in November - I don't HAVE to use it as a daily driver.

My point is, there is no perfect vehicle. For safety, reliability, and good gas mileage, I would stay with a FWD or AWD vehicle such as the Subaru Forester or Legacy Outback Wagon, or the 2005 Volvo V50 or SAAB 9-2X (a rebadged Subaru). A Volvo XC, or Audi Quattro if you can live with less reliability. The TJ would probably be the worst choice for general winter driving in terms of safety, but would be pretty capable in deep snow as long as you go SLOW. My suggestion would be to go with an AWD new car for most conditions, and have an old 4WD tank for the worst conditions - something you don't mind putting in a ditch. A Jeep Commando ragtop would be ideal, but haven't been made in over 30 years. Other than that, an old TJ would probably be your cheapest choice if you are looking for a ragtop. I get about 20 MPG with my 93 TJ, and it is a lot of fun in the summer (the week between spring and fall).

Dana C. Rohleder Port Kent, NY

Reply to
Dana Rohleder

On the soft top issue, I am thinking of getting the hard top for the winter months just because the Constant Ice and snow,slush,salt etc seems like it would detiorate the top prematurely and generally be real hard on it. Am I wrong?

I live in VT where it gets real cold and snowy!

Reply to
Intergate

Tim,

I lived near Burlington for 30 years (born and raised)and although I didn't own my Jeep then, I'll give you my $0.02 worth. (I seriously doubt there are many in this forum that know what a VT winter is really like.)

ABSOLUTELY get the hard top for winter.

The salt is (as you know) murder up there and when you have those stretches in late Dec-Jan when the temp doesn't go above zero (F) for

12 or more days (I remember all too well waking up to -20F mean Temp) you're begging for broken plastic. Never mind the snow. If you're like me, it won't get deep enough on the roof before you're out playing in it, and Ice? Well, noone can do anything about that unless you have indoor parking. The only thing that would make me think otherwise is if you had absolutely no way of storing the HT in summer- you know summer, the 3 nice weeks just after mud season!

John

(Snip)

Reply to
John R

The hard top is nice in the winter. So is going to look at xmas lights with the top down and those sunny spring days with lots of snow still on the trails....

I like it both ways.

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Reply to
Mike Romain

I'll second that. I'm not in VT, but not far from there and I appreciate the hard top on my TJ a lot (from around Xmas till April fools day)

-Fred W (in Southern NH) '98 TJ Sport

Reply to
Fred W.

Here's my 2 cents about this. I just moved from the mountains of West Virginia, but had lived there for about nine years. I always had a 4x4 because it was a winter necessity. I purchased a new TJ last winter and was very happy with it's ability in deep snow and mountain climbing in that snow. I had some "check engine light" issues when the temperature dropped below

17 degrees, but I think the dealer cured that. Anyway, the new Jeep was a replacement for a worn-out S-10 Blazer for daily work transportation. So I got the cheapest TJ on the lot and it's a rag top. I've had no problems with the top or keeping warm inside and still have a fun summer vehicle, too. I know it's new and the top might not give any problems yet, but I think the material and craftsmanship have improved from years past. I did go out and knock the snow off the top when it piled on and the heater cleared the ice from the side and back windows OK. Yea, it's the cheap Jeep with a four banger and a 5sp and I even like that. I get decent gas mileage and can putt around the mountains and streams longer without going to the gas station. I do drive 22mi one way to work on an Interstate highway at about 70mph daily. It might not be the quickest off the ramp, but then look at the fun I have off the Interstate in the mountains. If I want to go fast I'll get in my wife's Mustang GT !!! It's all in what you want to do . . . Tom T
Reply to
Tom T

8< 8< 8<

...ya-but, West Va is about a thousand miles south of Vermont. I'm thinking that even though the elevation may be similar, the lattitude's gotta make winters a bit milder. That and you surely get (got) more hours of daylight... ;-)

-Fred W

Reply to
Fred W.

Jon,

yep you are right about the short summers, this one is living up to that. My main concern is about the salt and constant cold especially on the windows.

I am going to use one of the plans online to build a Hard Top Holder for the garage ceiling.

Thanks

Reply to
Intergate

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