Wheel stud lubrication - good or bad?

About eighty, give or take. It wasn't a standard meeting, but a forum, for six candidates who are running in the April 4 local election, for three open slots. I went home thinking, "I am never, ever going to vote anywhere again. This is insane." I had nightmares. I woke up at 4 AM, had some milk and cookies, and restored my faith in the democratic process. I did some research, compared it with my notes from the meeting, and came up with two that I might vote for. People are insane here, I knew that. But to listen to two hours of their sh*t, it's almost as petty as Spanish national politics.

Get out there and vote, but know who you are voting for...

Earle

Well, you do live in a place that takes a little extra character to remain a resident....ever thought about running yourself?

tw _____________________________________________________________________

2003 TJ Rubicon * 2001 XJ Sport * 1971 Bill Stroppe Baja Bronco

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'."

Pronunciation: 'jEp Function: noun Date: 1940

Etymology: from g. p. (G= 'Government' P= '80 inch wheelbase') A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80" wheelbase, 1/4-ton capacity and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in World War II. _____________________________________________________________________

Earle Hort> About eighty, give or take. It wasn't a standard meeting, but a forum, for

Mike Romain wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@sympatico.ca:

OK, so I would assume that using lock-tite would be a wet torque as well. Are the (for example) motor-mount bolts I just torqued to 40 lbs too tight because I used lock-tight?

How much of an adjustment would you need to make in the torque when using a wet torque?

rufus

Bill,

We only have radio here, with the cable draped over the side of the spectator's area. I take notes, in a mix of Spanish, English and German that only I can make sense of. I like to look at the people. I get the impression, that they are all trying to hide something.

There is no need for grease, when threats still work. The town is small, and this is after all Western Colorado. I can forgive a certain amount of particularism, from people who still have some regard for my property rights.

Earle

Found this on the net:

"Since dry vs wet can vary greatly, any structural bolts that would be torqued under my supervision must be done per the AISC Calibrated torque wrench method to verify proper tension. But since you people are mere peons, not able to fully appreciate a Wilhelm-Skidmore bolt tensioner, I would go off the following rule of thumb torque formula:

T=(KDW)/12=foot-pounds

where T= torque K=friction factor D= Nominal bolt diameter in decimal inches W=clamp load in pounds K=0.30 for nonplated fasteners, black finish K=0.20 for electrodeposited zinc coatings K=0.15-0.18 for oils K=0.16 for cadmium electrodeposited coatings K=0.12 for copper anti-seize compound

Standard practice is to tighten a bolt to 70-75% of the proof load. Proof load is the point where a bolt will permanently deform more than 2%.

Let me know if you need any more schooling.

Jay

In a message dated 6/28/2002 11:30:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, snipped-for-privacy@corvis.com writes:"

Funny thing is that in the past, when I have had to install replacement studs on cars, the replacements came new with some sort of lube on them. You could feel it! IIRC those were TRW parts, purchased new from a very well regarded local part store/engine rebuilding shop.

So, I'd say a very small, well distributed touch of grease should not be a bad thing.

Regards,

DAve

Someone posted a list here a while back. When I rebuilt my CJ7 I went about 30% less on the ones with antiseize and loctite on them. I didn't snap anything and nothing fell off. I have pulled apart a lot of things over the years and can sure 'feel' the difference when tightening up dry or lubed threads. I learned way back that I can snap off greased up bolts very easily....

I had to remove my spindle this week and all the nuts came off easy as well as the spindle popped out fairly easily. A couple thumps and out it came. The 5 or 6 year old antiseize was still in evidence.

Engine mount bolts are 'special' it would seem. I have heard of folks that just plain can't tighten them right so they always end up with snapped ones.

Snapped ones imply they were either loose so were subjected to vibration impact or they were over tightened and subjected to stretching fractures. I suspect the second due to cussing about even using thread seal on them....

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

They come in a packing coating to prevent corrosion, the same as new rotors and bearings. You are supposed to wash off this coating with a solvent....

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >

Now I remember back when ordinary folks didn't have torque wrenches, air compressors and impact wrenches at home. And some service stations didn't either. With lug nuts, you used a "star" wrench and the important thing was that the lug nuts all be tightened about equally. Put yer back into it a little bit on that final turn. And the common knowledge at that time was that lug nuts (and studs) should be clean and dry, no lube. It was also common knowledge back then that a person should check their lug nuts occasionally.

So I wonder if it's all that important to have the exact (or correct, per factory) torque on lug nuts? They need to be equal, so as to not cause warping, and they need to be tight enough to hold the wheel secure and not allow it to come off. What more does a guy need?

Now-a-days many more people are using alloy wheels, which are probably more elastic (correct term?) than ordinary stamped steel wheels and so need a more precise tightening than the steel wheels. But just how much more precise does it need to be?

Where I worked, we serviced our own trucks. The tire shop had one of those big old manly-man impact wrenches for putting the wheels back on the trucks. They used the same wrench for alloy and steel wheels. Never did see a torque wrench laying about. Never heard of a wheel coming off. Never heard of a warped rotor or drum.

I recently got a set of tires at Costco. The tire shop was very neat and spotless. The policy at the shop was that the final tightening was by a more senior employee with a torque wrench. Seems like a prudent thing for a (deep pockets) company to do.

Now, personally, I have an air compressor and a 1/2" impact wrench at home and my compressor is usually at about 95#. ( I know that doesn't translate to torque lbs.) When I rotate my tires I usually just go around my pattern

3 or 4 times once all the slack has been taken up. Seems to work ok. I've never lubed the lug nuts. That said, the first time I rotated the alloy wheels on my new Chevy truck I thought I was going to have to go to the dealer to get the nuts broke loose. Dang, were they ever tight! Must have used one of those big old manly-man impact wrenches to put them on at the factory! Seemed like over-kill.

None of the above is intended to flame or put down anyone using more precise techniques. I admire precision. It's just that some times common sense can be just as effective and a whole lot less trouble.

Ralph

You haven't had my ex-wife's spaghetti.

tw

_____________________________________________________________________

2003 TJ Rubicon * 2001 XJ Sport * 1971 Bill Stroppe Baja Bronco

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'."

Pronunciation: 'jEp Function: noun Date: 1940

Etymology: from g. p. (G= 'Government' P= '80 inch wheelbase') A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80" wheelbase, 1/4-ton capacity and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in World War II. _____________________________________________________________________

Alloy metals as used in wheels are soft, deform easily, and over time can develop a "death grip" on steel fasteners. Just because you had to "go to the dealer to get the nuts broke loose" that does not mean that they were tightened with "one of those big old manly-man impact wrenches". You do not want to exceed the elastic limit of the metal in the wheel when you tighten the nuts. That is why you would use a torque wrench.

It used to be "common knowledge" that tomatoes were deadly poison.

Earle

*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com *** *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from ***

I recall reading that the pilgrims called tomatos ( a New World plant) "poisonous red love apples". I've often wondered about the brave soul who took the first bite out of one. Someone who "really" believe their theory? Or an attempted suicide that failed? Whatever. We now have tomato sauce and ketchup.

But with regards to lug nuts.

As I understand, overtightening can cause bad things to happen. Like metal fatigue, breakage, etc. (I did get my lug nuts off by myself but it sure put some strain on the old impact wrench! Talk about "death grip")

Undertightening, on the other hand, can also lead to bad things happening. Like nuts backing off, wheels coming off, and other related problems.

I agree that the optimum lies somewhere between these extreems. Given that most torque wrenches, outside of controlled environments (like NASA, and NASCAR teams, I suppose), will have an unknown error factor, and that most home mechanics will probably never have their torque wrenches recalibrated (some don't know to store their wrenches on "zero"), the best we can hope for is a reasonable attempt at some sort of consistancy. And some common knowledge has stood the test of time. Checking lug nuts occasionally, for example.

I seem to recall, also, that things like power steering, power brakes, and automatic transmissions were considered far too weak and failure-prone to ever be taken seriously by the commercial vehicle market. Ah, the march of technology. I love it but it's not my religeon. Common sense? I've worked with men who, honestly, didn't seem to understand which end of the screwdriver to hold on to!

Now that you've got me thinking about it, I think that I'll go out in a few mins and check the torque on my lug nuts, just to see what they're actually at! Maybe I'll even go get my torque wrench recalibrated!

Ralph

Italy had no tomatoes????

tw _____________________________________________________________________

2003 TJ Rubicon * 2001 XJ Sport * 1971 Bill Stroppe Baja Bronco

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'."

Pronunciation: 'jEp Function: noun Date: 1940

Etymology: from g. p. (G= 'Government' P= '80 inch wheelbase') A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80" wheelbase, 1/4-ton capacity and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in World War II. _____________________________________________________________________

Pumper H> I recall reading that the pilgrims called tomatos ( a New World plant)

I had some of my information on tomatos incorrect. Don't know where I got my info but it was a long time ago.

The above link will tell all that anyone might want to know about tomatos but begs the question: which came first, the tomato or the pizza? ;-)

Ralph

Here is a link to a site that explains the difference in torque for lubed/unlubed pretty well. Believe the info or not but it tries to explain the difference pretty well. Even has a calculator for different size fasteners.

Les '01 TJ

FWIW: This is what the WJ manual (section 22 Page 9) says about the topic.

"To install the wheel, first position it properly on the mounting surface. All wheel nuts should then be

tightened just snug. Gradually tighten them in

sequence to the proper torque specification (Fig. 5).

Never use oil or grease on studs or nuts."

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 00:25:29 GMT, the following appeared in rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys, posted by Clay :

You might want to consider that rust formed by corrosion of bare steel or iron might have properties a *wee* bit different from those of a protective coating containing oxides.