03 Range Rover 4.4 Gas Conversion

saying where you are might help! :)

I can do it, but I'm in the North of Scotland! Badger.

I know I'm not being very constructive but a colleague's experience of LPG may be of interest to readers: He thought he was being very clever when he bought a new Vauxhall with a factory fitted LPG conversion, he was going to save wads of money... Well that was until he tried to renew his insurance and found that everyone was charging way over the odds for LPG, it's now risen to nearly double that for a diesel. Then he found that the local quick-fit type places wouldn't even fit a set of tyres never mind do repair work as their insurance won't allow LPG fuelled cars on the premises! (though they never complained about the LPG tank in my camper, go figure). Then he tried to make a claim on his extended warranty to be told it didn't cover an LPG car, no not just the LPG bit but the whole car! (that's now in the hands of the legal profession). Then he managed to find a pump that apparently wasn't set right and over filled his tank, at least that's what the dealer claims, it was ok until next day when it was warmer and he got a flashing message on the dash telling him to evacuate the car immediately, which he did even though he was on a motorway, only to see clouds of gas escaping from somewhere under the car. Needless to say he wished he'd never bought it and wants rid, but surprise surprise can't get much of a trade in for it.

I'm only relaying his sorry tale, as they say your mileage may vary...

Greg

Personally I'd rather stick with a diesel than wander around with a pressurised bomb in the back of my car.. Petrol's bad enough as it is but LPG isn't something I'd like in a car in case of a collision. I have no idea if it's genuinely any more dangerous but it certainly doesn't inspire confidence.

"Ian Rawlings" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@desktop.tarcus.org.uk...

RUBBISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A petrol tank is made from thin sheet steel pressings or injection moulded plastic, either WILL split open in a collision, spewing highly flammable liquid and vapour all around.An LPG tank is the same as a propane cylinder, go attack one with a sledgehammer and see if you can put much of a dent in it - you might just manage if it's a big hamer and you are strong! Either way, you WILL NOT split an LPG tank open in the same way as a petrol tank. If a car is on fire and the heat gets to the petrol tank, be prepared for an explosion. An LPG tank has valves that are designed to relieve ay overpressure whic will indeed fuel the fire, but not cause an explosion. I know what I'd rather have in a collision and it isn't a thin, flimsy petrol tank. Vauxhall's line-fit LPG systems are notorious to say the least for being unreliable, but as for a pump's pressure causing an overfill - that's crap! The ONLY thing that can cause an overfill is a faulty fill valve unit in the tank not shutting off at the 80% fill point. The valve cannot be overcome just by pressure, due to the nature of its design. Whilst a lot of insurers will only insure an LPG car if it has been certified by an LPGA approved installer, I have only had one occurence of a loading to a premium in over 8 years of personally driving LPG converted vehicles, and that was solely because it was an ammendment to the policy mid-term, there was no additional premium on renewal. Badger.

As per Badger's reply - Bollocks. I've attended more LPG powered vehicle fires than I can remember (as a full-time fireman) and have never seen one explode. I've seen pressure relief valves release LPG in a controlled manner which gives an exciting shot of flame in complete safety. I have however seen a couple of exploding petrol tanks which tend to generate a need for clean underwear on the part of all involved.

LPG is a damn sight safer than petrol in almost all circumstances (it makes a better bang when it escapes unburnt into sewers). As part of the training courses we used to run for service station staff we used to light up the valve on a 9kg LPG cylinder to show them that burning LPG isn't a cause for panic - I'd happily sit on the cylibder whilst talking to them about it (and I haven't got enough of a death wish to do anything that might endanger my life). Turning the cylinder upside down to let liquid LPG escape is always a giggle though - you can get a 20 foot stream of flame which normally wakes the audience up.

Yeah yeah. It's a pressurised system, which you state yourself, and if it leaks it'll huff nasty gas everywhere. I don't like petrol either, but a pressurised vessel stuffed with gas doesn't sound like an improvement.

I'll stick with diesel as much as I can, you have to put a lot of effort into making that go up!

They shouldn't be let loose with a tax disc holder never mind a trolley jack within 100 yards of an LPG tank.

In my experience they are well meaning but generally dangerous people to have working on a car.

Shit happens - Would a Petrol car give any warning at all of a leak?

Sell it private, compared to a Petrol car it'll actually atract buyers rather than being just another rep-mobile.

Lee D

I'm not 100% sure what you or badger are battering on about, are you saying that LPG is safer than diesel? I said that I don't know if LPG is safer than petrol, so quite where the "bollocks" bit comes from I don't know.

I suspect both of you are taking offence at a statement that was never made, not coverted to Islam by any chance have you?

Hehe, a sheet of completely safe flame. I'm a convert, no more diesel for me!

Well if you think everyone is going to pay dealer prices I'm afraid you've got another think coming!. I have one particular places I've come to trust and while they've made the odd silly they've also bent over backwards to help on many occasions. The most important thing to me is that they've never tried to cheat me which is more than I can say for every dealer I've ever used, oh and dealers make just as many sillies.

Er, would a petrol car suddenly produce clouds of explosive and asphixiant gas?, the fact that they saw fit to install the warning device speaks volumes to me.

Greg

Try hitting the brass valve and watch it fly across the room, believe me they won't stand a heavy knock, that's why they're protected by the steel frame around the top, a system is only as strong as it's weakest part.

Yes he suspected as much, he's also had a lot of reliability issues and suspected a vehicle fault caused the over filling, but of course the dealer said it was someone else's fault, the same dealer that sold him the worthless warranty...

Greg

Obviously a burning stream of gas coming out of the valve isn't a big problem as it's barely any different from attaching a blow lamp burner to one, but if they're so harmless why do you play hoses to cool them if they are being heated by a fire?.

I recall seeing a test done with some large propane tanks deliberately heated by a fire, so long as the safety vent was functioning they just produced a big flame when the valve opened, no problem. But then they jammed the safety vent and repeated the experiment, that tank swelled to about double it's diameter and then exploded with such force that it demolished the reinforced concrete walls that had been built to contain it. It didn't simply burn off slowly over minutes, it exploded in a fraction of a second. So they're fairly safe so long as that single safety device works perfectly when needed...

Anyway, I didn't intend to start an argument about the safety of LPG conversions but to point out that they can turn out to be a costly nightmare.

Greg

So as to stop them venting - the last thing you want in the aftermath of a fire is a cloud of flammable gas hanging around.

A phenomenon known as a BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Evaporating Vapour Explosion). Incredibily destructive and bloody frightening, but highly unlikely to occur in any 1st World produced LPG equipment.

Indeed, and I was merely trying to point out the sheer stupidity of the various entities that wanted to know nothing about an LPG powered vehicle.

On or around Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:34:22 +0100, Ian Rawlings enlightened us thusly:

still true that the tank is a hell of a lot tougher, and has better safety systems in place. A properly installed system has no less than 3 shut-off valves which require a 12V supply to open and shut under spring pressure.

Yes, it can vent gas in the event of a fire. But it doesn't spew gallons of flammable liquid everywhere - and if you get into a violent enough collision that you manage to rupture the tank, then you're not likely to be in much condition to notice...

I guess a very hot localised fire on one spot could soften the tank so it'd rupture. I'm not sure how you'd get such a fire, though, except from an oxy torch. Although pressurised, it's not very high pressure, normally between

100 and 150 psi, ish.

The pressure in an LPG cylinder at ambient temparature is only around

150PSI so knocking the valve off isn't going to do much mechanical damage. It's the high pressure cylinders like industrial gases and dive cylinders that cause mayhem when the valve detaches.

He wasn't suggesting it would fly around like a released balloon, it's a weak point that allows what's inside to leak out in an uncontrolled manner. A petrol system needs gravity to help the fuel leak catastrophically whereas an LPG system will happily squirt the fuel all over the place without the aid of gravity.

Also it's petrol vapour that explodes, not petrol, and petrol vapour makes up a small percentage of the fuel load. If I understand it correctly, an LPG system will leak the entire fuel load as explosive vapour.

I'd assume that the multivalve is the weak point on the tank. I'm sure mine was made of plastic! While im quite happy that i couldnt damage the tank I'm sure that i could smash the multivalve off with one good hit?. Its only held on with 6 or 4 little cap screws too IIRC.

Ive seem petrol cars tanks explode when in flames (I lived in leeds for a few years!), so i dont really think that LPG can be any more unsafe!

Correct, although the flammable limits of LPG in air are relatively narrow (not that that's much comfort after you've just been incinerated).

Actually I meant the valve flies across the room, i.e. detaches VERY easily under impact as I found in the distant past, I wasn't suggesting some Hollywood fantasy with the cylinder becoming a rocket 8-).

Greg