Bull Bars

Can someone tell me the present law regarding Bull Bars, A Frames, etc. Are they permitted on new vehicles? to be fitted to existing vehicles ? and what about in France, is there any legislation there. Thanks. Eddie Green.

Reply to
Eddie Green
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I've seen them fitted on new land rovers (defenders), proper ones too not those plastic ones, so they must be legal, I don't know if you have to prove some kind of need or not but as both are freely available from many accessories dealers I can only assume that people are buying them therefor they are legal and proper.

I'm sure someone who knows what they are talking about will be along promptly, and if someone can quote some legislation etc then I'll make a page for it on my website as it's worth info in my view.

Regards. Mark.

Reply to
MVP

Mark and Eddie hi,

I can not speak for France or the UK but supposedly all European Union countries now apply the same rules and laws as specified under the common EU directives for road going vehicles and their specifications.

So what applies here in Greece is that no vehicle is supposed to have any kind of increase of more than 5 cm on its factory specified dimensions. Bullbars or additional/reinforced bumpers are only allowed if they have a specific type approval for the vehicle they are mounted on and ONLY if the importer of the vehicle or the additional equipment (bullbar in our case) has filed a special notification of the type approval to the competent authorities (more precisely the Ministry of Transport and the MoT central authotiry for vehicular technical inspections. Those two authorities have to afterwards notify the Road and Highway Police so that they do not give tickets to drivers of vehicles fitted with those "improvements")

Our club's advise to all owners of Land Rover vehicles with bullbars is to ALWAYS carry with them a copy of the type approval or the protocoled type approval notification filed by the importer of the vehicle or the bullbar with them so that they do not have a ticket issued to them in case of a road check or when they pass their MoT.

I have had a very serious court case against me because of the bullbar fitted on my genuine 1994 evented Camel Trophy Discovery 200Tdi which was finally won because I had a letter from the central LR legal and technical departments specifying that CT vehicles were FACTORY fitted with the bullbar and other equipment and had type approval when they were issued their road registration number plates in the UK.

Hope this helps

Take care Pantelis Giamarellos LAND ROVER CLUB OF GREECE

Reply to
Pantelis Giamarellos

5cm?!? crikey, what about roof racks then?

Regards. Mark.

Reply to
MVP

Why do you want bullbars anyhow mate?

I really cant see what purpose they serve for normal road driving. They can make any accident damage a fair bit worse & are not exactly good if you hit a pedestrian. I can see why they could be useful for off road driving.

Anyone got any commenst about bullbars & have i missed the point etc?

Nige

-- Subaru WRX (The Bitch)

Series 3 Landrover 88" (Albert)

'"They called him Jimmy the gent"

Reply to
Nige

Agree about exacerbating a pedestrian impact - not good in those situations.

What they do provide is a decent mounting point for extra lighting which is always useful with a Landies headlamps.

I've also had them prevent major damage when one of the local deer decided it was a rabbit and to try and outstare my Disco. Without the bullbars I'd have had to replace a lot of the front offside corner of the car. As was I had to take it through a carwash.

As per anything, there are arguments for and against. Personally I'd like

*something* up front to catch large vegetation on my motor, but that's mostly used for offroad work and so the "road driving" thing doesn't apply.

P.

Reply to
Paul S. Brown

After some outcry in our wonderful objective unsensationalising media about child-killing bullbars the government did some research into it with the help of the various agencies that actually attend accidents and fix people up and so are in a position to know. After an argument in an unrelated newsgroup about bullbars I dug the report up and read it, I don't have it to hand now and can't be bothered to find it so if anyone's interested they can look for themselves.

The gist of it was;

  • Bullbars have been implicated in a grand total of 3 deaths in the UK in one year, and only tipped the balance from almost certainly fatal to actually fatal,
  • On some 4x4s the Bullbars have caused a relatively minor increase in injury to accident victims,
  • On some 4x4s the Bullbars flex more than the vehicle itself and so are likely to have reduced injury to accident victims.
  • The potential for injury caused by the Bullbars is entirely dependent on the design of the Bullbars and the design of the vehicle on which they are mounted.

Basically fitting Bullbars to a Defender isn't going to make one tiny iota of difference to someone you hit, it's the whacking great big 4x4 with the chassis sticking out the front that'll kill them. A Toyota Rav-4 or a Volvo XC90 (or whatever it is) on the other hand is much less likely to kill someone than a Defender, fitting Bullbars to such soft-roaders is likely to cause extra injury but the statistics from the crash reports indicated that it wasn't significant.

Hence they weren't banned in this country.

People who worry about the morality of fitting Bullbars really shouldn't be driving Landrover products, they're not very nice things to hit people with, much worse than most of their competitors. Insurance industry figures released last year showed that across the whole of the UK, in accidents involving two vehicles in which one vehicle's occupants were killed, the surviving occupants were most likely to be driving a Defender. Much to my surprise this was trumpeted in the press that I saw as proof that the Defender is very safe, personally I'd say it shows the exact opposite! Post-BMW Discoveries and Range Rovers won't be any better.

In addition to all that waffle, the majority of Bullbars are mounted at the base with bolts through the chassis and have a levering effect on those mount points. This means that a heavy impact on them is likely to put so much force on the mounting point that you risk tearing the chassis at that point, if the bolts or Bullbar don't break first. With vegetation and other such stuff that's not likely to make a difference, but if you are ever tempted to tie a tow rope to the Bullbar and pull something with it or be towed with it, you stand a good risk of causing some nasty damage to the vehicle or Bullbar.

Reply to
Ian Rawlings

On or around Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:16:05 +0100, "Nige" enlightened us thusly:

make any accident damage a

they could be useful for off

mine looks better IMHO with the bar on it and it provides a good solid mount for the spotlamps.

Reply to
Austin Shackles

Nige Hi,

I totally agree with your on bullbars being both un-necessary and dangerous on vehicles that are used mainly on the road or for slight or medium off roading use. This is why I have removed it (along with the roofrack) from one of my two camels. The other one is being kept at 100% original state (down to its event battle scars) as a future classic vehicle.

To get back to your point about bullbars I can also add that a chassis mounted bullbar will definately cause more damage to the vehicle it is mounted on in case on an accident since the chassis can get more easily bent and also bullbars tend to spread damage in a larger bodyshell area while vehicles without bullbars tend to have accident damage focused only in the "contact" area.

They also signicicantly alter the way the vehicle handles because they add so much weight in front of the front axle.

Take care Pantelis

can make any accident damage a

why they could be useful for off

Reply to
Pantelis Giamarellos

Paul Hi,

you definately have a reason to have a bullbar then. Were the dear steaks nice???

take care Pantelis

Reply to
Pantelis Giamarellos

My previous Land Rover ('84 110 hard top) had bullbars fitted when I got it and I found them helpful as a spotlight mount and tp protect the headlights and radiator from branches and the odd pheasant.

My current Land Rover ('84 110 csw) does not have bullbars and the only feature I miss is headlamp protection which can be accomodated by some heavy duty headlamp protectors.

I'm not particularly for or against bullbars, if they are needed then fair enough, if they are added because they look good then fair enough, your vehicle, your choice kinda thing.

Regards. Mark.

Reply to
MVP

JD Hi,

it is extremely nice to be able to drive in the open space and I am sure your bullbar really deserves its place in front of your car. But then again would it really be a wise choice to have it on a car that only sees open space and 'roos in its dreams?

Take care Pantelis

Reply to
Pantelis Giamarellos

Pantelis, I agree - it may not be a wise choice - but the same comment can often be made about many choices made by car owners, probably the most obvious one being the size of cars, let alone the question of urban four wheel drives, so why single out bull bars? As an interesting sidelight on my previous post, the news this morning includes the discovery of a broken down car in Western Australia with the bodies of two men and their dog who had been dead from thirst for some time. This breakdown was not, apparently, due to animal damage, but from mechanical problems, but it does make the point.

Legislative action against bullbars should be seen in the same light as as, for example, legislative action that requires all vehicles to be fitted with drinking water tanks. I suspect that certainly in this country the number of deaths from thirst after breakdowns would be similar to the number of pedestrian deaths due to bullbars - and in both cases the numbers are very small, with far more deaths being caused by other factors (but bearing in mind every accident is caused by a whole chain of factors).

JD

Pantelis Giamarellos wrote:

Reply to
JD

According to my insurance company the law is should your insurance company allow them great, otherwise no. I asked at my local LR specialist who agreed with this and therefore installed one on my 94 disco. Before you say he was just selling, he actually told me to check with the insurance company first!

Reply to
cyberwraith

My local LR garage told me to check with my insurance company, if they say it is ok then it is ok. So simply ask your insurance company.

Reply to
cyberwraith

test

Reply to
cyberwraith

Now should I stick my genny on the front as there is room what will the law think, and have they really anything they can say here or to eternity ?

Reply to
Larry

I am not pro bull bars but with a vintage landie I can't see em making a haporth of difference on pedestrian impact and might even improve the situation.

Like I said in my previos post I doubt if anyone would quibble if I fixed my generator there or a winch, a landie is not a car it is a utility vehicle.

Reply to
Larry

Roofrack ???? roofrack

now how might that be a hazard other than at drive in McDonalds and Car Washes?

I have wing mirrors on my landie, and they are potentially nasty, as much as door mirrors might be.

Incedentally the only way a landie can be a classic is if it is heavily modified in my opinion, they were never intended to be pickled in aspic.

Reply to
Larry

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