Defender replacement

In message , William Black writes

I'm more than happy with the current puma engine - although nothings gone wrong with it yet and it's still in warranty. It's not a V8 though.

"William Black" wrote

Anyone know how the 'Defender replacement' is coming along and when the old Defender factory will be loaded onto the inevitable ship, bound for Bombay...

With Indian labour rates at about £25 - £35 a week I should be able to pick one up for a reasonably small amount in a couple of years.

I wonder if they'll go back to the 300 series engine...

I do hope so...

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This may answer some of your questions...

I read that before I asked.

If they do make something that looks like a big Freelander the sound you can hear is the rural customers heading for the Toyota and Subaru dealerships.

Sadly, I doubt it in the UK/EU, emissions regs and all that.

The reason the military hung on to the 300TDi, is that the TD5 injeciton control system, is "a bit noisy" in the HF radio spectrum. (In common with many common rail electricaly controled diesels) TDi's are nice and quiet in that respect.

DaveB.

My new Defender radio is almost unusable on MW - lot worse than the V8 ever was.

The Defender will became unsaleable in the EU in a couple of years anyway so they're not even considering that market for an Indian assembled version.

They'll be looking at their home market in India where there's a need for a reasonably priced 4x4 utility vehicle that is better than the little Suzuki and cheaper than the Land Cruisers.

That slot is currently taken by Tata pick-ups, but they're crude even when compared to the Defender.

Plus the Indian Army is shopping for a new vehicle and the Mahindra Axe is looking increasingly like a slow motion disaster.

A locally produce Defender is a possible option if the Axe can't be made to work...

I read that before I asked.

If they do make something that looks like a big Freelander the sound you can hear is the rural customers heading for the Toyota and Subaru dealerships.

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They know exactly what their target customers want and will design it accordingly. As the article says, they realise it's a halo vehicle for the rest of their range, despite selling in small numbers at the moment, so they will get it right. The fact they want to try to recapture their lost lead in the 3rd world for a utility vehicle also bodes well for it continuing to be a proper go anywhere utility vehicle and easy to maintain. I would expect a range of vehicles from the basic to the rather plush too, so covering all world market requirements. One hopes it will look like a modern reworking of the Series/Defender, does what it says on the tin, type vehicle but we can only wait and see on that. My requests are for Door seals that work, a cabin/seating that does not damage drivers elbows, a galvanised chassis, and an oil filter that is vertical, not at a stupid angle, so you don't get oil everywhere when you change the filter. Using copper grease on all bolts when building would be helpful too.

A roof that doesn't leak, galvanised bolts, paint that doesn't fall off, a back door that doesn't 'explode' with alloy plague, a heated rear window that stays working...

Steel back doors came in just after Td5 - just retro-fit if it's a problem!

There's two key factors that worry me about the replacement:

1. Is it going to be designed for the US market, and therefore become lame like Jeep has due to US legislation.

1. Having worked at Rover I know the engineers have no idea at all what Defenders get *really* used for, and how they are abused. I'm sure the company is well aware of Defenders 'legendary' status, but only in terms of 'design' (so-called styling clues like Freelander II). If I were Tata I'd be sending my engineers out to do RTV trials, green laning and farm/quarry work so they can see that practicality and durability, and the ability to operate legally even after fairly severe damage are the key factors that make Defender what it is. E.g. Alton Towers dumped it's transit fleet in favour of Defenders because the Transits were getting damaged moving round the park and looked awful. A bent Defender looks almost cool ("my, they've been having fun") and doesn't need fixing until the end of the season.

Tata's offices are in Bombay.

They know what bad roads, bent and broken vehicles and dirt roads look like.

Defenders are starting to show up there now and seem to cope admirably with the conditions.

Their problem with the 'Defender replacement' is that it isn't for their Indian domestic market. In my opinion they'll crate up the old Defender factory and ship it East to deal with that.

What they need is a vehicle that'll sell 25,000 units a year into the UK domestic market.

The Defender sells about half that at the moment, and at a loss because of their high build costs.

What they need is a 'flagship vehicle' that produces the right image at a price they can sell and I don't think they care about their traditional markets in the rural, defence and emergency sectors because the people who run them keep their vehicles for far too long a time period to produce a reasonable market.

The 'military car' for generals/Special Forces/staff officers has moved onto the Discovery and that rather odd 'cut down' Range Rover you see about now and again and the mainstream military now need a higher load carrying capacity than a normal 'unplated' road going vehicle can provide.

I think they'll go for a Discovery like vehicle underneath with an angular alloy body and utility interior because it's a cheap alternative that looks like what they had.

"William Black" wrote ((HUGE SNIP))

I think they'll go for a Discovery like vehicle underneath with an angular alloy body and utility interior because it's a cheap alternative that looks like what they had.

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The two comments that interested me were... " As well as a brand new platform and factory space, a wide range of body styles is expected to include station wagons and pick-ups, as well as bespoke specials for commercial customers."

Which sounds encouraging as does..

"The company believes it can no longer have a tiny share of the (World Wide) utility market that it partly defined, even though it will be hard to re-establish Land Rover in Africa and Australia, where Toyota?s Land Cruiser is the benchmark off-roader"

I have a ounce of brand loyalty left, when I made my recent purchase of a Pathfinder it was based on a balance of needing to tick certain boxes. I could have bought an extremely nice defender but it was ruled out on grounds of safety. When I say this I'm thinking autoroute crash senarios. I could count on one finger the number of air bags and the roof and its ability to "squish" leaves much to be desired. All the other boxes were ticked. The final downer was the narrowness of the interior, again for those longer trips and thinking of creature comforts. This is taking in to account all of the 110's other character / flaws.

Now some may say I could have purchased a Disco that would have ticked the boxes.. and to a degree this is true but I bought a top end '08 Pathfinder for £5000 less than a '05 top end Disco which had 20,000 more miles on and was a smokers car. This was after some very extensive searching too. After the experience of the recent maintaince costs to keep my FFRR mint It wasn't too hard at all to have my head turned by Nissans Pathfinder. Is it a Landrover - no, nor a FFRR, does it do what I need , yes - safely and within my budget. I could have gone with a lower spec Disco, but then agains as they say, "One life... why compromise" :-)

So Landrover really need to get a grip , the defender overhaul is long overdue - if they had a defender that ticked my boxes and was safe I'd have one sat on the drive now. I still have my 110 CSW by the way but I shall not be doing huge road trips across Europe with it.. but I will in the Pathfinder. My 110 CSW hangs around for the dirty jobs and a little landrover therapy, it also reminds me why I bought the Pathfinder.... h'mmmm.

Just my experience.

Lee D

IIRC the article in Autocar quoted 18000 Defenders a year but falling whereas all other models were increasing sales.

Does anyone have any figures for Nissan Nirvanas or Mitshubishi L200s, or Toyota Hilux?

At the end of the day it's new sales which matter to the manufacturer and sales and servicing ( which largely comes during warranty period)for the dealers.

At work, we use L200's and they are fantastic. Reliable, economical workhorses that have a decent-sized cab for the driver to actually fit into and be able to move about! Because we have a requirement to tow one piece of equipment that is beyond the ability of the L200 (legally), we also have a

110 HCPU, factory fitted with the HD suspension pack to give a 3500Kg GVW. This carries a 1400Kg load in the back permanently, and tows 3200Kg behind it. It will do this all day long without complaining, BUT........ unless landrover do something about the cab we will not have another one. I am 6'1" and the new style cab with its useless fancy plastic dash has less legroom inside than the previous style, in fact if my left foot isn't on the clutch my knee is wedged against the dash with the seat right back! Not safe, not comfortable. It needs 6" more in the cab (and always has!) and this in my opinion is the prime reason for reduced sales and a swing towards the Japs, yet again british industry resting on its laurels and doing nothing to advance, then wondering why it all went belly-up and got sold! I wish TATA all the best with their redesign and I hope it is a product we can look at favourably next time we change vehicles, but they MUST listen to the criticisms and act upon them or they are wasting their time, just like those before them. Badger.

If it's still unusable with the engine stopped, check you have the right antenna, and grounding.

Also, there (used to be) an adjustment tweak on AM car radios that sort of matched them to the antenna. Adjust at the top end of MW (the absolute virgin gold end) for best results. Of course, most vehicle antennas are now too short for any decent MW/LW performance, without a pre-amp, often built in, but can die in a way the MW/LW amplification fails, but FM signals still get through OK.

I think the TD5's had an 85V or so power supply in the ECU for the injection controls. That was quiet enough, but the unshielded wires to the injectors themselves, with that sort of signal level, and sub us switching times, was a recipie for EM disaster.

I don't yet know what the TDV6's use. Something shielded or quieter I hope.

Regards.

DaveB

No problems with the TD6 in the FFRR, HF Mobile was fine on 80m and 20m which were the only two bands I had antenna for.

Lee D

"William Black" wrote

Latest comment is that the new Defender will be built on the same chassis as the new Disco (due 2016). Whether they will have the money to produce a new chassis is anyone's guess but it does need to be lighter than the present one which is 11 years old anyway. LR say the new Disco will be a much more utilitarian vehicle and in the Landcruiser mode to differentiate it from the plush Range Rover models. Which puts the Defender replacement just about where it is now, a workhorse. They say both will be able to tow well and carry good loads.

Nice to know.

2. DaveB G0WBX(G8KBV)